Where's he gone?

[EFLImpudence]

, it seems clear that some people were formally taught that "plug top" was correct, in colleges etc or apprenticeships, which supports my suspicion that the industry was (for some reason!) 'responsible' !!

If that is the case - if it is possible for it to be the case; i.e. whatever one is formally taught is deemed correct regardless, given that all words are made up and just a selection of letters; then what do you think the 'top' (of plug top) actually means?

Could, for example, a cup be called a 'cup top' just because someone formally teaches that?

Or can we not just say "Don't be so silly"?

 

[JohnW2]

If that is the case - if it is possible for it to be the case; i.e. whatever one is formally taught is deemed correct regardless, given that all words are made up and just a selection of letters; then what do you think the 'top' (of plug top) actually means?
Could, for example, a cup be called a 'cup top' just because someone formally teaches that?
Or can we not just say "Don't be so silly"?

I think we can probably agree that we both thing that it is a very silly term - because we expect the origin/derivation to be 'logical' and know what the word "top", alone means. hence, as you say, we therefore think that a 'plugtop' should be the top of a plug.

I think I have to bounce the question back at you, since I think we differ in our view of what is 'correct'(and hence what should be formally taught).

As you know, my inclination is to say that what is 'correct' at any point in time is the terminology that is, at that rime, in widespread and long-established 'common usage'. You, on the other hand, seem to feel that "widespread and long-established common usage" may be 'incorrect' and that the 'correct' terminology (which is what should be taught) is dictated by historical factors.

Having said that, "plugtop" is a very bad example of the general issue we so often discuss, since (in contrast with things like "light bulb" and "low voltage") the term is not "in widespread common usage". I have rarely come across members of the general public using the term and, when they do, it is probably because they have seen it being used 'by the industry' and therefore think that it therefore must be 'correct'. For what it's worth, I've just asked a few family members what "plugtop" means, and none of them had a clue- other than suggesting that it might logically mean the top of some sort of plug (but without knowing whether that would be an 'electrical plug' or something else).

Despite the occasional use of the term, I can't recall ever having seen a product, or its packaging, labelled as a "plugtop",have you?

Kind Regards, John

 

[SUNRAY]

With a lot of these things it's the teachers opinions/pronounciations that permeate.
One of my college tutors in 1970s referred to folls, omms, hams & vats. Apparently Omms ehquarls volls hofer hams. As a group we asked for another of our tutors, Patrick McGuinty, to be replaced as he had a severe Eire accent and spoke at 200MPH, we didn't stand a chance with him, quite honestly we thought he was speaking in a different language.
When I did my 16th course my tutor referred to pulling the carblurr into the condoo, apparently his apprentiship was in the 1990's for an Indian family run company. Plug tops, isol,at,tor fuus were other terms.
One youtube I was asked to watch described wiring a ceiling rose as something like; de new rules in de lup, de 2 ots in hell, de fweech in hen. Yess the finished item had 3 blacks in loop, 2 reds in 'L' and one red in 'N'

Now if any of those had been my only education in the subject then those words would have become my language.

 

[SUNRAY]

If that is the case - if it is possible for it to be the case; i.e. whatever one is formally taught is deemed correct regardless, given that all words are made up and just a selection of letters; then what do you think the 'top' (of plug top) actually means?

Could, for example, a cup be called a 'cup top' just because someone formally teaches that?

Or can we not just say "Don't be so silly"?

Surely a cup top is a saucer as saucers were originally placed on the cup to keep the tea hot and then poured into the saucer where it was slurped from

 

[RandomGrinch]

As I wrote at the time, you seem to have presented a reasonable argument for "plug cap" perhaps having been a 'correct' term in the US in the early 20th century, and I suppose it's possible that that somehow ended up as "plug top" over here. However, as I also said back then, it certainly never seemed to catch on with the UK general public, since I spent probably the first 50+ years of my life never having heard the term.

Yes, absolutely correct.
All I can say with confidence, is that in the US, one of the forebears of the 'plug and socket' named the system as a whole, the 'plug'. The detachable part was called the 'plug cap'.
What I can't (yet) say, is whether this term was in common use in the US, let alone here.

I think my motivation for looking into this was, the absolutely literal way that 'plug top' was interpreted by some:

I hope I have shown that (at least in the US), there may have been historical factors, i.e. sockets relating to light fittings etc. that could have led to a product being named in a way, that is illogical to us now.

There seem to be enough people calling the plug a 'plug top', that would suggest there is a reason behind it - this reason may be lost to history, but to call someone an idiot for using the term is just wrong!

 

[JohnW2]

Yes, absolutely correct. All I can say with confidence, is that in the US, one of the forebears of the 'plug and socket' named the system as a whole, the 'plug'. The detachable part was called the 'plug cap'. What I can't (yet) say, is whether this term was in common use in the US, let alone here.

As I recently wrote, I don't think that even "plugtop" has ever been in even remotely 'common usage' in the UK, and I'd never even heard of "plug cap" until you mentioned it.

I think my motivation for looking into this was, the absolutely literal way that 'plug top' was interpreted by some:

Exactly, as I just wrote to EFLI, I think we only regard it as silly because we expect the origin/derivation to be logical, and already have an understanding of what the word "top", on its own, means. Had someone added something to "plug" which, in itself, was meaningless to us (e.g. "plugoopy" (and that term had come into common usage), we would probably not have so much of a problem with it.

I hope I have shown that (at least in the US), there may have been historical factors, i.e. sockets relating to light fittings etc. that could have led to a product being named in a way, that is illogical to us now.

Yes, as I said, I agree.

There seem to be enough people calling the plug a 'plug top', that would suggest there is a reason behind it - this reason may be lost to history, but to call someone an idiot for using the term is just wrong!

Yes, there obviously must be a reason - but, as above, I really don't think that all that many people actually do use the word (or ever have).

Although I know the concept attracts flak, in terms of 'clear and unambiguous communication' (which is what matters most to me), I think that we all know what is meant when people talk of a "plugtop", even if we regard it as a 'silly' term.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Despite the occasional use of the term, I can't recall ever having seen a product, or its packaging, labelled as a "plugtop",have you?

No and, like you, I had never heard the term before joining the forum.

Also I would question the 'common usage' that you hold so dear. It begs the question: how common?


The Cambridge Dictionary has recently modified its definition of 'woman'. This is not due to common or even substantial usage nor any actual need. It is because of dogma by the particular organisation so perhaps reliance on conventional methods for explanation is misguided.

 

[JohnW2]

No and, like you, I had never heard the term before joining the forum.

I'm not surprised.

Also I would question the 'common usage' that you hold so dear. It begs the question: how common?

That's obviously a fairly arbitrary decision, and opinions will undoubtedly vary widely in the 'middle ground'. However, I think it's fairly easy at the extremes - i.e.at least as far as my experience is concerned, "light bulb" (or just "bulb"( is in very common usage, whereas "plugtop" definitely isn't.

The Cambridge Dictionary has recently modified its definition of 'woman'. This is not due to common or even substantial usage nor any actual need. It is because of dogma by the particular organisation so perhaps reliance on conventional methods for explanation is misguided.

All that may well be true and I have no intention to either defend or criticise dictionaries - other than (as you might imagine) to say that I would hope that they would reflect 'common current usage' (however defined). I would think that a 'unilateral' change (for whatever reason) in what a dictionary said would have little effect if it were inconsistent with current 'common usage'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[CBW]

Uh oh - guess who’s back

 

[winston1]

Uh oh - guess who’s back

BAS?

 

[ericmark]

I wish, I did like Ban-all-sheds, he did go OTT some times, but still liked him.

 

[RandomGrinch]

I wish, I did like Ban-all-sheds, he did go OTT some times, but still liked him.

Well, it definitely gets complicated over on Screwfix forum!
Plenty of speculation that "Banallsheds" has assumed the identity of "BAS", but is in fact "Winston1":

https://community.screwfix.com/threads/converting-from-halogen-to-led.224939/

https://community.screwfix.com/threads/loft-sockets.225341/

I can't believe anything like this could occur on DIYNot!
Who would have thought internet forums could be so intriguing!

 

[ericmark]

Yes I use three forums, and BAS was at some point on all three, one has his "DIY electrical work and the law" pinned even if done Thu Dec 20, 2007 4:50 pm so now well out of date.

 

[Taylortwocities]

BAS?

No, you put paid to him.

 

[ericmark]

Sometimes its useful to have an idiot around. It stops all the smarter people from thinking the same thing.

Who is that aimed at?