EV are they worth it?

[ericmark]

Interesting but f.all to do with EV cars.
You should start a thread.

Thought I had?

 

[Avocet]

Mycelium spreads under woodland forming a large part of the eco system, so for a woodland to flourish it needs this organism to be in the soil beneath the trees, so cutting down trees in one area and re-planting in another does not work.

There are areas where we or nature have done things to the soil where it means limited crops can be grown, if any, we see the slag heaps and the attempts to get any vegetation to grow is very limited. And sited where buildings have once been, often with minerals in the soil so there is little which can be done with it other than build some thing else.

Armillaria (Honey Fungus) is it seems the largest living organism in the world, and produces very tasty mushroom, unfortunately this also damages the trees, where the mycelium is symbiotic and is required for many trees to grow well, and can be species pacific.

The same is true of the animals living in the trees, deciduous trees support the grey squirrel where the pine trees support the red squirrel if there are pine martins around, as the grey is too heavy to get out of the way, loosing a species or changing the type of tree can cause no end of problems, the grey squirrel is responsible for the loss of beech seedling as the strip the bark, odd but they do not seem to attack either adult trees or self seeded trees, but seem to attack any seedling planted by man.

Poland has one of the largest forests which in the main is self supporting, but for small woodlands to survive it requires mans intervention. I know with one woodland I was involved with, we had to walk the stream looking for Japanese knotweed and garden escapees, rhododendron may look nice, but are poisonous to sheep, and laburnum is another nasty, which both are not native, but when one tries to move woodland can get in.

So why not just build new factories on the sites of old ones? No need to cut down trees.

Hasn't the Foresty Commission (now Forestry England) been doing exactly that, for 100 years now? (cutting down trees in one area and planting new ones in another).

 

[ericmark]

There was a good friend of mine who was passionate about the woodland, he had 20 acres of his own, and tried to get others to do what he felt was the right thing, for a time I ran his website http://www.naturalforestpractice.com/ but this stopped and is now run by some one else, Iliff died around 2019 but his legacy lives on.

Some of the photos on his site still have my name on them, and he made some good points, I did not agree with all he said, but most seemed to make sense, he said he was not 7 foot, he was 6 foot 12 inches, and quite a character, and managed to persuade the council to buy land next to his woodland so even more area covered.

Same trees as in Iliff's land, but planted in strict rows, and clearly not doing anywhere near as well as his trees, and he put this down to the lack of the mycelium, it would in time spread to the new woodland, but it had not done so when I was last there around 5 years ago.

As to how long before the mycelium dies I don't know, it may well last until the forest regrows some 15 years latter, his own woodland was cut down for the war effort during the first world war, but was replanted by Iliff's grandfather, and there were clearly some old trees which were older than the first world war. His land at the other end joined onto the loggerheads county park, so there was due to his woodland quite and expanse of woodland.

However it made no money, the cost to cut down one tree and transport exceeds the money made from the sale of the wood, and his woodland was a SSSI site anyway, so he could not fell trees without permission. This included the national grid who had power line across his land, they wanted to cut down or reduce the tree heights, but were told tough, either make your poles higher, or go around.

As to being anything to do with EV's well clearly if reason for EV's is to save the planet yes, it does not matter if it is the mining for minerals, or the building of a factory, one can't claim the EV is carbon neutral if to build them costs more in carbon than the average car emits in it's life time.

Yes some times we do have to say hang on, we still need to live, and we clearly still need to burn some fossil fuels, I can't say too much of course since I work for a steam railway, however all the steam railways of Wales release less carbon in a year to one transatlantic jumbo jet flight.

 

[Odds]

EVs are slightly more carbon-intensive to manufacture in the first place, but most estimates suggest the lower per-mile emissions of EVs quickly make up for the extra emissions involved in their creation. One recent study calculated the “breakeven” point at a little under 17,000 miles driven; another study put the number at 21,300 miles. Given that the average American drives 13,500 miles a year, EVs should break even within a couple years of use.

But is this still true for Chinese EVs? China still gets more than 60 percent of its electricity from coal, compared to less than 20 percent in the US. The US instead relies more on gas and renewables, leading to a cleaner grid overall. That means producing EVs and EV batteries in China should, on average, produce more carbon emissions than making them in the US or Europe.

So, does this mean that BYD’s cheap EVs are bad for the environment, or at least no better for it than typical gas vehicles? Hardly. “It’s just sort of a ruse,” Anand Gopal, a clean energy and transportation expert and executive director of policy research at the firm Energy Innovation, says. “Close to 90 percent of the emissions of a fossil fuel vehicle [are] from the combustion of the fuel. Even if you have slight variations in the manufacturing emissions based on the region, an EV is just going to be massively better.”

VOX.com

A cheap-to-buy, cheap-to-run car that can get you from A-to-B without coughing up a lung: what's not to like?
America has slapped protectionist tariffs all over the Seagull, a new EV which is not currently available in the UK, but this may change. The Seagull has recently arrived in South America as the 'Dolphin Mini' and costs the equivalent of £15,930.

One man and his cat explains more...

 

[robinbanks]

one can't claim the EV is carbon neutral if to build them costs more in carbon than the average car emits in it's life time

So, given that they're both cars and have mostly similar components like wheels and seats etc that would reasonably have similar carbon costs, what is the fundamental difference between an EV and an ICE that means the ICE does pay its carbon debt but an EV doesn't? Do you have a source for the numbers behind it, that eg manufacturing a lithium cell and charging it off renewable power for 10 years/200k miles still emits more carbon than burning dinosaur juice for the same?

 

[ericmark]

Mileage driven, and life of car will change the figures, so I drive around 30 miles a week, except for holidays, and holidays an electric would not work. I do use batteries, in my e-bike and solar array, so I use cheap over night power, and since an EV can be used as a battery bank, they would likely work for me, not as a run about but a battery bank. But not at the cost to buy in the first place. And my 3.2 kWh battery has already been replaced in less than a year.

 

[Avocet]

This is the most comprehensive back-to-back study that I've seen:

https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/market-assets/intl/applications/dotcom/pdf/c40/volvo-c40-recharge-lca-report.pdf

It reckoned 77,000 km for the EV to break even with the ICE. (48,000 miles).

That was based on the EU28 average electricity generation carbon emissions in 2018, when the study was carried out. Since then, manufacturing techniques have become greener, so the CO2 contend due to manufacture, has gone down for both ICE and EV, but as the EV has more manufcturing CO2, it has obviously gone down more for the EV.

In addition, the UK is well ahead of the EU28 when it comes to carbon intensity of electricity generation and, of course, pretty much all countries' grid carbon intensity has reduced since 2018. (About 150 grammes of CO2 per kWh generated in the UK last year).

So with one thing and another, I think the typical break-even point for an EV and a similar ICE, is now more like 25-30,000 miles.

What I have NEVER seen, is a credible study suggesting that the EV never breaks even.

 

[Avocet]

Mileage driven, and life of car will change the figures, so I drive around 30 miles a week, except for holidays, and holidays an electric would not work. I do use batteries, in my e-bike and solar array, so I use cheap over night power, and since an EV can be used as a battery bank, they would likely work for me, not as a run about but a battery bank. But not at the cost to buy in the first place. And my 3.2 kWh battery has already been replaced in less than a year.

For you, personally, it wouldn't work. But unless you scrap your new car when you're finished with it, you'll sell it to someone else, so it will carry on saving CO2 after you're finished with it.

I think the average mileage of a UK car at scrappage is now about 150,000 and 15 years?

 

[Odds]

Mileage driven, and life of car will change the figures, so I drive around 30 miles a week, except for holidays, and holidays an electric would not work. I do use batteries, in my e-bike and solar array, so I use cheap over night power, and since an EV can be used as a battery bank, they would likely work for me, not as a run about but a battery bank. But not at the cost to buy in the first place. And my 3.2 kWh battery has already been replaced in less than a year.

But if you're getting up to 250 miles from a single charge how would that not work for you?

 

[ericmark]

Typical holiday to down to Cornwell to a craft hotel, this is around 300 miles, and we typically travel over night, although we do hit the M5 so likely rapid chargers for the way down, the tail end of trip on return leg is through Wales and not even many standard garages open never mine EV charge points. And although the hotel has two recharging points, it can cater for over 100 guests, so getting on the charge point is likely to present a problem, and we rarely leave the hotel.

The other trip which again needs to be by car as no public transport I could use (can't fly) is a trip to Germany to a wedding, again would need to recharge enroute, and also catch ferries.

I could use an EV local, however could also use public transport, only time I could not use public transport is to go to hospital, that is 110 miles return, so that is the minimum real range which will work. But can ask for ambulance instead, which are in the main not electric anyway.

So when all the public transport other than heritage railways are electric, then time to look at private transport.

 

[flameport]

we do hit the M5 so likely rapid chargers for the way down,

More than plenty. Pink icons are all DC rapid charger locations. These are either on the route, or within 1 mile of it.
A typical EV would need to stop for charging once. Some could do the whole journey with no charging.

the tail end of trip on return leg is through Wales and not even many standard garages open never mine EV charge points.

Still more than plenty.
EV charging is not typically found at 'garages' - most of those only sell fossil fuels and will soon be obsolete.
EV charging locations are open 24 hours a day.

A typical EV requires one charging stop on that journey. Some could do the 300 miles on a single charge, but on that 6+ hour journey you will be stopping at least once anyway, and probably twice.

It's easy to make excuses as to why EVs don't work, but the reality is that DC charging is plentiful, and while destination charging overnight at a hotel would be nice, it's certainly not essential.

I could use an EV local, however could also use public transport,

Public transport is preferable to using any car, EV or not.

only time I could not use public transport is to go to hospital, that is 110 miles return,

Well within the capabilities of pretty much all EVs available today. 100% of charging would be at home, and as you have solar, most of that could be free. No public charging required.

 

[ReganAndCarter]

Bllimey! This really IS about what everyone else can do for you, isn't it?

Prove it!

 

[Odds]

A typical EV requires one charging stop on that journey. Some could do the 300 miles on a single charge, but on that 6+ hour journey you will be stopping at least once anyway, and probably twice. It's easy to make excuses as to why EVs don't work, but the reality is that DC charging is plentiful, and while destination charging overnight at a hotel would be nice, it's certainly not essential.

Public transport is preferable to using any car, EV or not.

Well within the capabilities of pretty much all EVs available today. 100% of charging would be at home, and as you have solar, most of that could be free. No public charging required.

I think the 'Seagull' is being sold in China as a car to get about a busy city rather than long journeys across country - it has the look of a car that'd be ideal for the streets of London...when it goes on sale in the UK that is.

 

[Avocet]

Prove it!

You already did - post 1112!

 

[ReganAndCarter]

You already did - post 1112!

That's not proof.