EV are they worth it?

[ericmark]

Kerbside charging is a real problem due to the loss of PEN problem, not so much of a problem if charged away from general public, and no problem when charged in a garage.

There was a number of publications about this this one highlights the increase of loss of PEN and this one says how the HSE has refused to act it is an on going saga, and it is just a matter of time before government is forced to act. The problem is when governments do act, it is likely to be a knee jerk reaction. And likely they will go OTT yet again, this is what they normally do.

I know our local public charge point is rather close to a metal framed, metal clad building, which should not have multi PME supplies, so should be TN-S or TT, but looking at the install not so sure the rules have been complied with. I am not worried, the building is bonded to 8 miles of railway track, so in this case not a problem, but the PME supply in my mind should have never been permitted.

 

[ReganAndCarter]

It's funny you should say this. There is a coming bigger problem that absolutely trumps the coming bigger problem you're talking about..

You probably won't be around to experience it mind, which might be why you don't care so much?

I'm sure there will be many problems coming in the decades and centuries ahead. This may come as a shock to you, but as I won't be there, can do nothing about it and don't lose any sleep - I just don't worry about it. future generations have to sort it out.

Past British generations passed on an amazing legacy to us, much of which we have squandered. They also passed on a few problems which we have had to deal with. It's the way it's always been. Hope this lesson in realities proves useful to you.

 

[Brigadier]

Kerbside charging is a real problem due to the loss of PEN problem, not so much of a problem if charged away from general public, and no problem when charged in a garage.

There was a number of publications about this this one highlights the increase of loss of PEN and this one says how the HSE has refused to act it is an on going saga, and it is just a matter of time before government is forced to act. The problem is when governments do act, it is likely to be a knee jerk reaction. And likely they will go OTT yet again, this is what they normally do.

I know our local public charge point is rather close to a metal framed, metal clad building, which should not have multi PME supplies, so should be TN-S or TT, but looking at the install not so sure the rules have been complied with. I am not worried, the building is bonded to 8 miles of railway track, so in this case not a problem, but the PME supply in my mind should have never been permitted.

As I'm not an electrical engineer, would you please explain the circumstances in which a reasonable person, charging their EV in a reasonable fashion, realistically risks being electrocuted?

i.e. not sticking their keys into the outlet, or hacking at the cable insulation.

 

[Avocet]

I'm sure there will be many problems coming in the decades and centuries ahead. This may come as a shock to you, but as I won't be there, can do nothing about it and don't lose any sleep - I just don't worry about it. future generations have to sort it out.

Well... so long as you're OK...

Past British generations passed on an amazing legacy to us, much of which we have squandered. They also passed on a few problems which we have had to deal with. It's the way it's always been. Hope this lesson in realities proves useful to you.

Bllimey! This really IS about what everyone else can do for you, isn't it?

 

[flameport]

As I'm not an electrical engineer, would you please explain the circumstances in which a reasonable person, charging their EV in a reasonable fashion, realistically risks being electrocuted?

CNE conductor in the supply is damaged (also called a PEN conductor by some).
This results in all earthed conductive items becoming live, which includes the metal parts of a connected vehicle.

It's an unlikely event, but dangerous when it occurs, and a single break can affect multiple properties.

 

[Brigadier]

It's an unlikely event

Like dinosaur - killing asteroid unlikely, or bumping - into - someone - from - pub-while - on - holiday unlikely?

 

[flameport]

A few 100 incidents per year, out of 10s of millions of properties.

 

[ericmark]

A few 100 incidents per year, out of 10s of millions of properties.

To be fair number of injuries caused as a result of loss of PEN lower than number of times it has been lost, however it is the raising trend which is the issue. In the main due to copper theft and road works. And the main concern is gas supplies bonded on the wrong side of the insulating block or block missing and the gas pipe melting and setting fire to the gas.

The hope is the homes are even loaded, if it is then even with a broken PEN the voltage will not vary much, but with a three phase supply one of the phases will quickly go out of limits and switch off the EV supply, but with a single phase supply it can remain connected some time, and even turning off the main isolator although it will save equipment, it will not remove the shock risk as most isolators do not switch the earth.

 

[Odds]

Environmentalists in Germany have occupied part of a forest expected to be cleared if an expansion of Tesla's electric car factory near Berlin goes ahead.

[email protected]

Making more electric vehicles - good for the planet.
Cutting down trees to expand production of electric vehicles. - bad for the environment.

You can't win.

 

[Avocet]

Environmentalists in Germany have occupied part of a forest expected to be cleared if an expansion of Tesla's electric car factory near Berlin goes ahead.

[email protected]

Making more electric vehicles - good for the planet.
Cutting down trees to expand production of electric vehicles. - bad for the environment.

You can't win.

That's pretty poor, isn't it? You'd have thought this would all have been put to bed at the planning application stage!

 

[Odds]

That's pretty poor, isn't it? You'd have thought this would all have been put to bed at the planning application stage!

People want new, cleaner, greener tech but aren't prepared to go the full mile and would much rather everyone else paid for it. Cutting trees down isn't the big deal eco-warriors make it out to be. Plant new ones. What's the problem?

 

[Avocet]

People want new, cleaner, greener tech but aren't prepared to go the full mile and would much rather everyone else paid for it. Cutting trees down isn't the big deal eco-warriors make it out to be. Plant new ones. What's the problem?

Exactly. You'd have thought it would have been a planning condition, to simply replace the same area of lost woodland. Yes, there are particular issues around "ancient" forests, and I don't know if this is one of those, but as far a CO2 is concerned, a tree's a tree!

 

[Odds]

Exactly. You'd have thought it would have been a planning condition, to simply replace the same area of lost woodland. Yes, there are particular issues around "ancient" forests, and I don't know if this is one of those, but as far a CO2 is concerned, a tree's a tree!

Well, there's trees and then there are trees but that's a different discussion on the merits of reviving temperate rainforest which is vexing Welsh farmers presently - it's a sign of things to come when the UK enlarges its EV capacity, though.

 

[ericmark]

People want new, cleaner, greener tech but aren't prepared to go the full mile and would much rather everyone else paid for it. Cutting trees down isn't the big deal eco-warriors make it out to be. Plant new ones. What's the problem?

Mycelium spreads under woodland forming a large part of the eco system, so for a woodland to flourish it needs this organism to be in the soil beneath the trees, so cutting down trees in one area and re-planting in another does not work.

There are areas where we or nature have done things to the soil where it means limited crops can be grown, if any, we see the slag heaps and the attempts to get any vegetation to grow is very limited. And sited where buildings have once been, often with minerals in the soil so there is little which can be done with it other than build some thing else.

Armillaria (Honey Fungus) is it seems the largest living organism in the world, and produces very tasty mushroom, unfortunately this also damages the trees, where the mycelium is symbiotic and is required for many trees to grow well, and can be species pacific.

The same is true of the animals living in the trees, deciduous trees support the grey squirrel where the pine trees support the red squirrel if there are pine martins around, as the grey is too heavy to get out of the way, loosing a species or changing the type of tree can cause no end of problems, the grey squirrel is responsible for the loss of beech seedling as the strip the bark, odd but they do not seem to attack either adult trees or self seeded trees, but seem to attack any seedling planted by man.

Poland has one of the largest forests which in the main is self supporting, but for small woodlands to survive it requires mans intervention. I know with one woodland I was involved with, we had to walk the stream looking for Japanese knotweed and garden escapees, rhododendron may look nice, but are poisonous to sheep, and laburnum is another nasty, which both are not native, but when one tries to move woodland can get in.

So why not just build new factories on the sites of old ones? No need to cut down trees.

 

[Odds]

Interesting but f.all to do with EV cars.
You should start a thread.