Generator advice needed - thinking of buying one for a small bungalow

[Harry Bloomfield]

Indeed so - but I think all that probably means is that during previously de-frosting its temp was not allowed to rise to appreciably more that 0°C. The problem with trying to thaw something big (like a turkey) by leaving it in a warm (or even hot) place is that the outer parts will get quite warm (hence a lot of bacterial replication) long before the inner parts have thawed. However, again, that's probably not much of a problem if it is subsequently going to be 'properly cooked'.

Indeed so - anything significantly below about 0°C is probably pretty 'safe'. I think that at temps between 0°C and about -18°C, deterioration of 'quality' (taste and/or texture) may occur, hence the normal temp of 'food freezers'. However, as I said, I've also heard it said that 'quality' will again deteriorate if the temp gets a lot below -18°C - but, as I said, I don't know if that is true.

It's maybe one of those simplified, fits all rules.. They also say, never put any metal in a microwave oven. If you understand the reason for the rule, you can safely ignore it, and more often than not, I do, leaving a spoon, or fork, in a dish.

 

[JohnW2]

And it's also an (illegal) way of home fortifying wine. Freeze it, pick out the ice crystals, wine now has a higher alcohol content.

Indeed - as you're [probably aware, it's known as "fractional crystallisation". However, I didn't think it was illegal - I've heard it said that they over looked this possibility (legislators may well have been unaware of the possibility ) when they drafted the legislation outlawing unlicensed factional distillation - but I don't know if that's true!

 

[JohnW2]

I think it'll be one of those "it depends" things where it's simpler to have a simple rule (don't do X) rather than a complex list of rules (don't do X with Y, but you can do it with Z, and you can so it with W if you follow these precautions). Like "don't reheat chicken" - I suspect that's more because people have been doing it badly (i.e. not getting things good and hot to kill bugs) and then getting ill. Much easier to say "don't reheat chicken" than "if you're going to reheat chicken then you must do A and B".

It's maybe one of those simplified, fits all rules.. They also say, never put any metal in a microwave oven. If you understand the reason for the rule, you can safely ignore it, and more often than not, I do, leaving a spoon, or fork, in a dish.

I imagine that you're both probably right, probably with more than a little input from lawyers as a 'backside protecting' approach.

As I see it, one should not really freeze anything that has been stored at temps appreciably above freezing for significant periods of time, since the bacterial multiplication during such periods will mean a higher 'starting point' for further replication when the food is ultimately thawed and used. However, that's true whether or not the food had been 'previously frozen'. One might suspect that the lawyers want to avoid attempts at blame for problems due to unwise freezing/thawing practices that would very probably have happened even if the food hadn't been previously frozen.

However, as I keep saying, none of this should really matter if the food is going to be 'cooked properly' A temp of 60 °C will kill the vast majority of bugs, and few, if any, can survive temps approaching 100 °C.

 

[ericmark]

Seems I was well out, the inverter drive freezer

as to the refreezing I asked google

While technically safe in most cases, refreezing food is generally discouraged because it significantly degrades the food's quality, making it mushy and less flavorful due to the repeated ice crystal formation and cell damage that occurs during freezing and thawing cycles; essentially, the more you freeze and thaw food, the more moisture is lost and the texture deteriorates.

Another listed 5 items which should not be re-frozen

1. Raw Proteins
This includes meat, poultry, and seafood. If they were thawed in a chilled environment that’s less than 42°F (like your refrigerator), then it’s safe to refreeze. But if they thawed on the counter or have an off color or smell, they’re done!
Don’t forget that a lot of seafood, especially shrimp, arrive at the grocery store frozen, but are defrosted to be put into the display case. They’ve already gone through a first freeze, so don’t put them in your home freezer for a second freeze!
2. Ice Cream
If you left it out on the counter so it was easier to scoop and then forgot to put it back in the freezer quickly, just drink it as a milkshake or use for a batch of french toast and call it a day, folks. Refrozen ice cream will have a weird, icy texture.
3. Juice Concentrates
Fermentation occurs faster than you think in fruit-based products so you’ll want to enjoy them quickly and definitely don’t try to refreeze them — this goes for blended smoothies, too.
4. Combination Meals
Eat up your casseroles, pot pies, stews, pastas, and the like, or bring it for lunch so it doesn’t go to waste. After all, it’s cooked and ready to go, so it’s the easiest kind of homemade meal to have!
5. Cooked Proteins
Freezing leftover roasted or rotisserie chicken is a great idea, but then you pulled it out for salads a few weeks later and forgot about it in your fridge. Call some friends over and put the chicken on nachos ASAP, because it shouldn’t be refrozen!

 

[morqthana]

Indeed - as you're [probably aware, it's known as "fractional crystallisation". However, I didn't think it was illegal - I've heard it said that they over looked this possibility (legislators may well have been unaware of the possibility ) when they drafted the legislation outlawing unlicensed factional distillation - but I don't know if that's true!

I read once that in northern states in the USA, and in Canada, people who make their own cider keep on forgetting to bring all the barrels indoors as winter approaches.

 

[morqthana]

I tried freezing milk, and a 1 litre bottle works, but as you go up in size, the time to freeze and defrost gets close to the life of the milk

I've never tried freezing larger than a 2 pint bottle, but I have done that countless times - it's standard for us to keep 2 pints in the freezer to deal with unexpected demands. Not once, in decades of doing this, have we ever had problems with the life of the defrosted milk. Including times where we've just left it out of the freezer and by the time we've gone to refrigerate it it's well above fridge temperature.

But the best method, if you're really anxious, is to put the bottle in the microwave on the lowest power setting, or defrost, for 20-30 minutes at a time, taking it out after each session and giving it a good hard shake. It's not difficult to get it totally defrosted and still be below fridge temperature.

 

[morqthana]

And if you freeze milk, you see the same effect - and it's easy to be pouring off quite nice milk when you think it's thawed, then look in the carton and see you've a lump of ice in the middle (which thaws to something resembling skimmed milk (yuck)).

See above. Give it a good hard shake. If it rattles or tinkles it's not fully defrosted.

 

[morqthana]

as to the refreezing I asked google

Which gave you a defective AI take on a whole bunch of paranoid CYA postings by all manner of people.

While technically safe in most cases, refreezing food is generally discouraged because it significantly degrades the food's quality, making it mushy and less flavorful due to the repeated ice crystal formation and cell damage that occurs during freezing and thawing cycles; essentially, the more you freeze and thaw food, the more moisture is lost and the texture deteriorates.

I wont (knowingly) buy "fresh" mackerel which has been frozen, as the degradation is catastrophic.

Another listed 5 items which should not be re-frozen

I have a very (probably rightfully termed) cavalier attitude to advice like that. Quality related ones like re-frozen ice cream? OK, but as for much of the "safety" stuff: meh.

I've often chilled, reheated, and then chilled and reheated again, cooked rice, which is apparently a no-no. Including that bought from Indian or Chinese takeaways, so with no guarantee it hadn't already been reheated once. And when I say "chilled", I don't mean "cooled at room temperature as fast as possible and refrigerated at the earliest moment".

I also have a couple of tubs of gravy in the freezer. The ingredients of the gravy are:

Gravy
Stock
Juices from roast/grilled meat.

The first ingredient, "gravy", consists of:

Gravy
Stock
Juices from roast/grilled meat.

and so on. Basically I assiduously collect any meat juices I can - even if it's only a tablespoon or so from grilled lamb chops, add that to the tubs. When it starts running down too much I'll top it up with stock. And so it goes on. Sometimes the meat juices will have sat out all night at room temperature in a covered roasting dish or grill pan.

When we want gravy I'll defrost a tub and heat it, then re-freeze what we don't use. Periodically I'll combine the tubs and re-freeze.

It must be 30-40 years since I had to start making some gravy from scratch. It's moved house with us 4 times. It's never made anybody ill, but it has made people say "wow - I like your gravy".

 

[ericmark]

I did look into the idea of freezing to increase the alcohol percentage, but at -18ºC it is around 18% and I can brew at 20% without freezing, used it to make liqueur coffee, and orange, made 6 bottles of each at £20 for the kit, worked well, but long winded, really want to make a larger quantity if doing it again. One made alcohol, then removed the flavour with charcoal then added the flavour you wanted plus extra sugar, so no reason why a 40 pint batch should not be split before adding flavour. But the shop I got supplies from closed down.

Unless using charcoal alcohol over around 5% tends to get a bitter after taste, except for cider. So I aim at 4% high enough to be safe to keep, but low enough not to get bitter after taste, can stop bitter after taste by largering, but to make a real larger all water needs to be boiled, and I use kits, the kits called larger are not really larger as brewed at around 19ºC. Larger is brewed at around 8ºC.

However this is nothing to do with getting a generator. However this is, not a clue why now the upright is only using 62 watt, why it used more earlier I do not know, I thought the last time I monitored the two freezers were nearly the same.

I had considered a small inverter generator before I got solar panels, this one at just over 2 kW would likely be enough, and at £205 it would not break the bank, maybe pay a little more and get from Machine Mart a little smaller at 1.1 kW, want some thing which does not make too much noise. 69 db at ¼ load, but would like to hear one running, today solar has actually lasted the whole day, I still have 20% battery left, so no real point in getting a generator now.

I do note in the instructions

4.4 Work with Gen set
All lux units can work with generator.
Users can connect the generator output to inverter Grid terminal. If you have both grid and generator as AC input,
we need an external ATS to switch between grid and generator.
Please purchase an external control box to remote turn on/off the generator(which support dry contact function).
The generator will be automatically started when battery voltage is lower than the cut-off value or there is charge
request from BMS. When voltage is higher than AC charge setting value, it will stop the generator
4.3 Monitor System
1. Wifi Quick Guidance
Quick guidance for setting password for wifi module, the paper is also available in the wifi box
2.Monitor system setup for Distributors and Monitor system setup for end users
Monitor system registration ,wifi password setting, and wifi local monitor and setting
3.Lux_Monitor_UI_Introduction
Introduction of monitor interface
4. Website Setting Guidance
Introduction of website settings for hybrid inverter
Users can use wifi dongle/WLAN dongle/4G dongle( Available from 2021 March for some countries) to monitor
the energy storage system, The monitor website is: server.luxpowertek.com
The APP is also available in the google play and apple APP store(Scan two code bar to download the APP).
Please download the introduction of guidance by website: https://www.luxpowertek.com/download/
Document Reference:
You should enable ‘Micro-grid’ function via the APP or Web page while you connect the generator to the
Lux unit. Battery will get charged when the generator is turned on, and the generator is bypassed to take
all loads in AC and UPS terminal.

So it seems I could have a generator as well, but only power cut to date was just a few hours.

 

[morqthana]

I guess the key points for everyone are how frequent, and for how long, are power cuts for you. And what's your view on how that might change.

A generator will run for days if you have the fuel, but a battery that could do that would be ££££.

Batteries have a limited life, and although fuel might also, for as long as you drive a petrol or diesel car a bit of management admin could see you on a regular basis putting your genny fuel in the car and refilling the jerry can(s) with fresh. Although not if you're using red diesel.

And if you have an EV - there's your standby power for some time.

Batteries are silent, generators not, which might be a real consideration for some.

There's probably no one-size-fits-all solution.

 

[morqthana]

I have a question.

Much LED lighting is, AFAIK, fairly tolerant of voltage fluctuations, and frequency changes. But rough waveforms that don't look sine-wavey enough?

IT equipment?

Gas boiler electrics?


Is an inverter generator a safer bet than a basic one and a good external inverter?

 

[morqthana]

maybe pay a little more and get from Machine Mart View attachment 366659 a little smaller at 1.1 kW,

OK - so looking at Machine Mart - I get that Honda engines are very good, but is it only the engine which makes this:

Honda EU32i 3.2kW Inverter Generator - Machine Mart - Machine Mart

www.machinemart.co.uk

cost over 6x this one: https://www.machinemart.co.uk/p/clarke-ig3500af-34kw-open-frame-inverter-gener/

?

Just looking at "Clarke" ones (yes, I know they're just badging all sorts of different makes), but what accounts for the price difference between these:

?

 

[ericmark]

So this

before spike shows the chest freezer, spike and after the upright freezer.

 

[SimonH2]

Quality related ones like re-frozen ice cream?

I have actually been on a tour of a place doing ice cream - I vaguely recall it was a dairy and did other stuff like yoghurts etc.
If you just try freezing the mixed ingredients than you will get a "gritty" texture with ice crystals. The way it's normally done is the mix is passed down a metal tube that's cooled from the outside. Inside the tube is a scraper that rotates and scrapes the ice cream off the inside of the tube before large ice crystals can form, and by the time it comes out the other end it's "creamy" ice cream. I vaguely recall Kenwood did an ice cream maker attachment for the Chef - basically the same principle, keep the mix moving while a crushed ice & salt mix freezes it.

Much LED lighting is, AFAIK, fairly tolerant of voltage fluctuations, and frequency changes. But rough waveforms that don't look sine-wavey enough?

How long is your piece of string
Some will not be in the slightest bit bothered, some won't like it - and there's no real way to know other than to try it.
At one end of the spectrum, nothing in the lamp other than a rectifier, current limiting resistor, and a string of LED chips. These will vary in brightness with voltage, so as the fridge starts and stops, your lights will change brightness.
Others use a capacitor (before the rectifier) to drop the voltage. In principle these will pass more current with a choppy waveform. Enough to be a problem, no idea.
Then you get to the ones that are basically an SMPS and a bunch of LED chips, I would expect these to be very forgiving - unless the waveform it's fed tricks it into thinking it's behind a dimmer.

IT equipment?

I've run a fair bit of kit off my genny (cheap, "unbranded" frame type) over the years - that includes taking laptop and (laser) printer with me to run a motorsport event, or taking my genny to a client to run their servers during a planned power outage. Most IT kit has an SMPS at the input, and these are generally fairly tolerant of both voltage and waveform.
The biggest problem I've ever had with it was with a kettle ! With no load, adding a 3kW kettle (it's a 3kW genny) could make it get "bogged down". Apply the load, the genny ups the output power, load slows the engine, and it's basic (mechanical) auto throttle can't react quickly enough. So it finds itself on the back of the engine's torque curve, well below normal speed, and with insufficient torque to get back up to normal speed. But that's quite an extreme case - from 0 to 100% load instantaneously.

Gas boiler electrics?

Ah, now it gets interesting.
This is all heresay, but in various places I've read of some boilers being a bit finicky about the power supply. Apart from waveform, apparently some are really finicky about the neutral being earthed - something to do with the flame detection system. So some gennys will be a problem as they aren't 0-220V with neutral tied to earth, but 55-0-165V with the centre tap of one 110V winding earthed.

Is an inverter generator a safer bet than a basic one and a good external inverter?

Good question. I would suggest internal to the genny or external is more down to inverter quality and how it's output interacts with the load than where it is physically located. But, an inverter attached to a battery has a much more stable supply than one supplied directly from a genny.
With no inverter, i.e. a basic "bring the windings out to a socket" type, I wouldn't expect problems as the waveform should be sine wave (or at least a sine wave with perhaps some distortion) as that's inherent to the machine.
Inverters come in many types - but it's common to generate a variable width pulse at a higher than mains frequency so that when it's smoothed it is sine wave (this is nice and cheap to do), cheaper still is a basic square wave. I'd expect both of these to create problems with at least some loads.
Pure sine wave inverters are the ideal, but they were harder to build and cost more. These days the power electronics is so cheap that I'd expect most to be pure(ish) sine wave.

 

[morqthana]

as the fridge starts and stops, your lights will change brightness.

This would be an uncommon situation, probably short, not living off grid, so I could tolerate that.

The biggest problem I've ever had with it was with a kettle !

One of my hobs is a gas one, so I could get by without a kettle.

Ah, now it gets interesting.
This is all heresay, but in various places I've read of some boilers being a bit finicky about the power supply. Apart from waveform, apparently some are really finicky about the neutral being earthed - something to do with the flame detection system. So some gennys will be a problem as they aren't 0-220V with neutral tied to earth, but 55-0-165V with the centre tap of one 110V winding earthed.

OK. Were I ever to get a standby generator, being able to keep the CH on would be non-negotiable.

Good question. I would suggest internal to the genny or external is more down to inverter quality and how it's output interacts with the load than where it is physically located. But, an inverter attached to a battery has a much more stable supply than one supplied directly from a genny.
With no inverter, i.e. a basic "bring the windings out to a socket" type, I wouldn't expect problems as the waveform should be sine wave (or at least a sine wave with perhaps some distortion) as that's inherent to the machine.
Inverters come in many types - but it's common to generate a variable width pulse at a higher than mains frequency so that when it's smoothed it is sine wave (this is nice and cheap to do), cheaper still is a basic square wave. I'd expect both of these to create problems with at least some loads.
Pure sine wave inverters are the ideal, but they were harder to build and cost more. These days the power electronics is so cheap that I'd expect most to be pure(ish) sine wave.

OK. My thinking had been that an external one might be better quality, and if I needed to change the oily clanky mechanical bits I would retain my investment.