Responsibility of electrical intake equipment in flats

[EFLImpudence]

and 'smart' meters are just a particular example of items of equipment that a supplier might wish to install.

Except they are a Government directive; not the suppliers.

Indeed. I've asked her about this in the past, and she confirms that the concept of a 'deemed contract' is quite common and acceptable and that, in relation to the supply of electricity or gas (and various other things), is specifically provided for in legislation.

So - smart meters might not be include in the deemed contract.

I know. That's why I wrote:

However, as you know, the fact that many/most people believe something doesn't necessarily mean that it is correct or true.

Are you saying you might be wrong yet there is no way to determine the truth?

Just in the context of things electrical .... many people believe that only pull switches are permitted in bathrooms, that fans (and many other things) must have local isolators, that it's not permitted to have 4mm² unfused spurs from ring finals supplying multiple sockets etc. etc.

All of those people are wrong.

In return for your suggestion, why do you not just search for "Deemed contracts" ??

How would I know if it were correct and/or included smart meters?

Perhaps your daughter is not a barrister; it was only something I read on the internet.

 

[JohnW2]

Except they are a Government directive; not the suppliers.

I don't think that the reason a supplier 'wishes' to install a 'smart' meter is relevant. The government are not (at least, currently) forcing any consumer to have a 'smart' meter.

So - smart meters might not be include in the deemed contract.

As I understand it .... The contract is the suppliers one, containing whatever Ts&Cs they have put into it. The 'deemed' bit merely indicates that a consumer who uses the suppliers electricity is deemed to have agreed to that contract, even if they have not literally 'signed' it.

In terms of the contracted from which I quoted, I find it rather hard to believe that "...any metering equipment" does not include 'smart' meters, don't you?

Are you saying you might be wrong yet there is no way to determine the truth? All of those people are wrong.

I'm simply saying that just as all the people who have those beliefs about electrical matters are wrong, the same might be true of all those who believe that one can refuse to have a 'smart' meter (and still get an electricity supply).

How would I know if it were correct and/or included smart meters?

For a start, as above, it's hard to see how "...any metering equipment" could not include 'smart' meters.

I haven't personally yet heard of any instances of a consumer being 'forced' to have a 'smart' meter. We therefore don't know how a supplier would react if they told a consumer that the "must" accept a 'smart' meter (or else lose their supply) - so we don't know whether they would regard refusal to accept such a meter as being a breach of contract for which they could discontinue the supply.

As I wrote before, I don't really see 'smart' meters as being a special case. Given statements in contracts such as I quoted, if a supplier wanted to undertake a 'routine replacement' of your 'dumb' meter (something they often seem to do thee days, do you believe that you would have the right to tell them (and still get supply from them) that, for example, you would not be prepared to have a Landis & Gyr meter?

Perhaps your daughter is not a barrister; it was only something I read on the internet.

Just as with anything else you read on the Internet, what you've read about my daughter may not be true. Such is life. Mind you, it's not a new phenomenon due to the Internet - it is equally true of anything you hear in a pub, read in a newspaper, hear on radio/TV etc. etc.

 

[JohnW2]

The government, Ofgem and suppliers presumably could, between them, force the issue if they wanted to - if things were changed such that Ofgem's 'energy price caps'only applied to consumers with 'smart' meters and suppliers put prices up into the clouds for those without 'smart' meters, one imagines that only those with more money than sense would refuse to have the 'smart' meter.

 

[EFLImpudence]

That's a lot of arguing about something that you do not know.

The government are not (at least, currently) forcing any consumer to have a 'smart' meter.

Q.E.D. then. Thank you.

 

[JohnW2]

Q.E.D. then. Thank you.

I don't think that anyone, and certainly not me, has ever suggested that the government is currently forcing anyone to have a 'smart' meter. In fact, I don't think that I've ever mentioned 'government' at all - it's you who always brings that into the discussions.

My comments have related solely to the fact that the contracts which consumers have with suppliers (including 'deemed' ones) appear to mean that, if they so wished, they could insist on fitting a 'smart' meter if a customer wished to have a continuing supply of electricity. As I said, I have yet to hear of that having yet happened.

The government obviously is at least 'encouraging' (almost 'forcing', with financial incentives) suppliers to install as many smart meters as possible, so the time may come when suppliers feel increasingly obliged to try to 'insist' on a 'smart' meter being fitted.

 

[plugwash]

When it was installed decades ago it would have all been the electricity board for the area, but today it's all been separated out, and the mythical BNO for the parts between the incoming supply and the meter simply doesn't exist in many cases.
It will ultimately end up with the building owner, but they may have no knowledge or info about it, and are probably unaware it's anything to do with them.

To me this leaves several questions.

1. Can the successors of the Electricity boards really force the building owners to take resposibility for equipment they installed. If so under what legislation would this responsibility have been transferred.
2. Supposing the building owner is responsible for the equipment but has not signed any specific agreement taking responsibility, are they required to follow any particular standards. Clearly the meter installer wants a local cutout as a point of isolation, but is there anything forcing the building owner to provide one.
3. Assuming the building owner is indeed responible and assuming they either agree, or can be forced to provide a cutout who can actually do the work. Can any normal electrican do it? or are there special requirements.

 

[plugwash]

I just found https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/low-carbon-technology-domestic/lcts-in-multi-occupied-buildings which says "In some cases, the Distribution Network Operator (DNO) such as UK Power Networks can also act as the BNO."

 

[flameport]

To me this leaves several questions.

1 - They cannot force anything, but on the other hand if the DNO won't do anything with the installation then that only leaves the building owner to pay for it, or allow it to fall into disrepair.

2 - They may choose not to install a cutout, or install anything at all, but the lack of one will then be a constant problem every time a meter needs to be changed. With modern meters typically having a ~10 year lifespan or even less, that will occur rather often.
Standards that apply are the same for any other installation, including what meter installers expect to find there.
In this instance the presence of the MICC makes it far easier. Some flats and the like were wired in other cables such as T&E concealed in the building fabric and that would have to be replaced.

3 - Those that are competent to do the work can do it. That will include some electricians but certainly not all of them.
There is a slim possibility of some metering company getting bent out of shape over the fact that their meter will have to be disconnected during the work, but if that's a problem for them, they can sent persons along to disconnect and reconnect at their convenience. The same or worse would apply even if the DNO agreed to so whatever work was required, as they definitely won't do anything with meters.

In some cases, the Distribution Network Operator (DNO) such as UK Power Networks can also act as the BNO."

Indeed they can, however the OP has already been there and obtained the answer no.

 

[SUNRAY]

1 - They cannot force anything, but on the other hand if the DNO won't do anything with the installation then that only leaves the building owner to pay for it, or allow it to fall into disrepair.

2 - They may choose not to install a cutout, or install anything at all, but the lack of one will then be a constant problem every time a meter needs to be changed. With modern meters typically having a ~10 year lifespan or even less, that will occur rather often.
Standards that apply are the same for any other installation, including what meter installers expect to find there.
In this instance the presence of the MICC makes it far easier. Some flats and the like were wired in other cables such as T&E concealed in the building fabric and that would have to be replaced.

3 - Those that are competent to do the work can do it. That will include some electricians but certainly not all of them.
There is a slim possibility of some metering company getting bent out of shape over the fact that their meter will have to be disconnected during the work, but if that's a problem for them, they can sent persons along to disconnect and reconnect at their convenience. The same or worse would apply even if the DNO agreed to so whatever work was required, as they definitely won't do anything with meters.


Indeed they can, however the OP has already been there and obtained the answer no.

But they can still pull the fuse in the head.

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

I haven't personally yet heard of any instances of a consumer being 'forced' to have a 'smart' meter. We therefore don't know how a supplier would react if they told a consumer that the "must" accept a 'smart' meter (or else lose their supply) - so we don't know whether they would regard refusal to accept such a meter as being a breach of contract for which they could discontinue the supply.

The authorities, clearly pointed out, that the roll out of SM's was entirely voluntary for the customer - that I think overrides the contractual terms..

 

[JohnW2]

The authorities, clearly pointed out, that the roll out of SM's was entirely voluntary for the customer - that I think overrides the contractual terms..

Eh? I find that hard to believe.. It is surely the case that anyone is free to enter into any contract with anyone, if they are happy to accept the terms and conditions of that contract - and (other than in fairly extreme {'unreasonable'{ circumstances) I don't think any 'authorities' are able to dictate what is and is not agreed between the parties in such a contract?

We are all agreed that the government has not, and probably never will, attempt to force consumers to have a 'smart' meter, but I don't think (may be wrong!) that they have the ability to force a supplier to provide an electricity supply to someone not prepared to comply with the requirements of the supplier's contract.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Eh? I find that hard to believe.. It is surely the case that anyone is free to enter into any contract with anyone, if they are happy to accept the terms and conditions of that contract - and (other than in fairly extreme {'unreasonable'{ circumstances) I don't think any 'authorities' are able to dictate what is and is not agreed between the parties in such a contract?

We are all agreed that the government has not, and probably never will, attempt to force consumers to have a 'smart' meter, but I don't think (may be wrong!) that they have the ability to force a supplier to provide an electricity supply to someone not prepared to comply with the requirements of the supplier's contract.

You are not making much sense.

 

[333rocky333]

The copper is pyro cable

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Eh? I find that hard to believe.. It is surely the case that anyone is free to enter into any contract with anyone, if they are happy to accept the terms and conditions of that contract - and (other than in fairly extreme {'unreasonable'{ circumstances) I don't think any 'authorities' are able to dictate what is and is not agreed between the parties in such a contract?

It is still voluntary, no company is insisting that you must have a SM, even if some are saying to get certain tariffs, then you must have a SM. You still have the option, not to take the tariff.

 

[JohnW2]

You are not making much sense.

It obviously makes sense to me, but I can't respond to your comment unless you are more specific!