Radio Teleswitch Service, and are storage heaters still worth fitting?

[ericmark]

For me with solar panels and battery, I can easily work out average price for peak and off-peak for the year, and it comes out at around 19p/kWh when off-peak costs 8.5p/kWh and peak 30.17p/kWh and single rate is 23.86p/kWh so it is clearly worth it to have off-peak supply. OK 67.83p/day standing charge, and the single tariff is 68.17p/day so also a slight gain on standing charge. I am using Octopus prices, but all I am trying to show, is I can with records generated actually compare costs, and off-peak wins.

So now onto storage heaters, my first problem is to find Economy 7 rates, Octopus have Snug, which is 6 hours at night and an hour during the day, and so not easy to get straight answer, but it seems 14.68p/kWh nights and 33.78p/kWh in the day is about right, and to start with this is nowhere near as good as the deal I have for 5 hours, I use 12 kWh per day on average, Economy 7 users normally have smaller homes, so I would say 8 kWh/day without heating is fair guess. So around the £1000 a year for the peak supply. I would guess storage heaters used for half the year, so need to save around £600 with off-peak to break even. So gaining 9.18p for every kWh used, so need to use around 6500 kWh off-peak to break even. So my maths shows around 36 kWh/day.

At this point, I hit a brick wall, likely iron and clay bricks, but finding how many kWh is stored in the bricks, best I could find is

Example:

A 3kW storage heater charging for 8 hours uses 24 kWh of electricity (3kW * 8 hours = 24 kWh). This means it will store enough heat to potentially last for a significant portion of the day, depending on factors like insulation and desired temperature.

But some can fully charge in 5 hours, so it means very little. And this is before will look at less being used Autumn and Spring. But it would seem one would likely need 4 storage heaters at 3 kW to be on the gain. And the question is, do all rooms need heating 24/7, I don't with oil heating, my electronic TRV heads turn on rooms before we are due to use them, and on average only half or less of the house heated at any one time.

So why are we worried about RTS, seems past it's sell by date anyway. I await with interest to see some one who can show I am wrong. May as well replace with panel heaters?

 

[AndyPRK]

Can't see the point (effort&cost) in replacing a storage heater with panel heater. Just leave the flap open!

I just took meter readings over 3 days in winter.
If you are getting 70% of your energy on the night rate, all is good.

 

[ericmark]

Thank you, that was the sort of reply I was looking for, I can see the question being asked many times now until the end of the month.

 

[JohnW2]

So why are we worried about RTS, seems past it's sell by date anyway. I await with interest to see some one who can show I am wrong. May as well replace with panel heaters?

As I've asked before, I wonder how many people with E7 (or similar tariffs) actually have it controlled by an RTS.

As I've often pointed out, I've had E7 for about 40 years (and still do), but have never had a teleswitch. Initially, there was an electromechanical time switch, and in more recent times some sort of internal clock in an electronic ('dumb') meter. I therefore presume that, even without a 'smart' meter, people like me will continue to have an E7 tariff for at least the foreseeable future.

 

[ericmark]

Thank you, @JohnW2 I seem to remember on this forum, someone, maybe you, saying how the peak rate was not that high. I did find a list

I found shows a lot more for the price cap (single rate) to what I was paying, so not sure about the other rates?

 

[JohnW2]

Thank you, @JohnW2 I seem to remember on this forum, someone, maybe you, saying how the peak rate was not that high. I did find a list I found shows a lot more for the price cap (single rate) to what I was paying, so not sure about the other rates?

With So Energy (formally ESB), it seems that I am currently paying (per May bill) 27.0952 p/kWh peak, 19.7048 p/kWh off-peak and 46.74 p/day standing charge (all those excluding 5% VAT).

My 'peak' rate is hence only fractionally above the 'cap' for single-rate tariffs and my standing charge a little under the 'cap'. Hence, on the assumption that I would probably be paying the 'capped' rate if IO had a single, rate tariff, having E7 is therefore essentially a 'no-brainer' for me.

 

[ericmark]

Thank you, @JohnW2 as said single rate Octopus is 23.86p/kWh and 68.17p/day standing charge for me, but it seems it varies post code to post code.

I have to also consider some suppliers are better at getting things up and running, nothing wrong with British Gas on paper, but they drag their feet, and I had the first 18 months with solar panels and no payment for export.

Using your figures for Economy 7, Octopus base rate, and it seems @AndyPRK is spot on with the 70%. It will be a little less, as not factored in, you pay less standing charge. And 28.45p/kWh (5% tax added) is about what I paid with British Gas, a few p under or over is not really a problem.

It was when I looked at Octopus Flux with 39.9p/kWh from 4 pm to 7 pm, and I am thinking Winter I would likely run out of battery, so one could end up paying more than the single rate on average for the day.

I had to look at the solar software to try and work out prices, as each deal seemed to have different times and rates. Flux only gave 3 hours off-peak, and did not start until 2 am, and I realised it winter my battery would rarely last out, at 00:30 am start most days it would last out, and at 11:30 pm start there would be very few days it didn't last. But for me, I wanted more or equal export to off-peak, so I can fully charge battery, without losing money as forced to export for less. So the storage radiator is in some ways easier to work out.

 

[ericmark]

A widespread switch-off of Radio Teleswitch Service (RTS) meters will not happen on 30 June.

As of 30 May, there were 314,935 RTS meters requiring replacement in Great Britain, according to supplier data collected by Ofgem.

For RTS customers that live in an area without smart meter signal, their supplier will explain what other options are available before the radio signal is switched off. Energy suppliers are obliged under their licence conditions to ensure that a suitable alternative metering system is installed and that the customer’s service is not disrupted.

 

[AndyPRK]

, I can see the question being asked many times now until the end of the month.

Just because RTS is being switched off, it doesn't matter, Some people have timers to trigger their meters rate, some people many even have smart meters to do it!

Hopefully people with an RTS, will get their systems sorted and have working heating come winter

 

[JohnW2]

Just because RTS is being switched off, it doesn't matter, Some people have timers to trigger their meters rate, some people many even have smart meters to do it!

Yes, that's what I've said - I have E7, and have had it for about 40 years, but I've never had either a teleswitch or a 'smart' meter.

However, eric has just told us that Ofgem reports that there are "314,935 RTS meters requiring replacement in Great Britain", so it's not an insignificant issue - how much of 'an issue' presumably depending upon some of the uncertainties in relation to how metering of the affected installations will behave if/when the teleswitches stop getting their 'wireless' data.

 

[JohnW2]

Thank you, @JohnW2 as said single rate Octopus is 23.86p/kWh and 68.17p/day standing charge for me, but it seems it varies post code to post code.
Using your figures for Economy 7, Octopus base rate, and it seems @AndyPRK is spot on with the 70%. It will be a little less, as not factored in, you pay less standing charge. And 28.45p/kWh (5% tax added) is about what I paid with British Gas,...

I'm not sure whether or not your Octopus figures include VAT. If, like my So Energy ones, they do NOT include VAT, then I'm not sure where the "70%" comes from - comparing my E7 (27.0952 day and 19.7048 night) with a 23.86 single rate (and ignoring differences in Standing Charges), my calcs (if I've got them right!) suggest that E7 would be financially beneficial if one used more than about 44% of total energy at night rate. To be financially beneficial over a full year, one would obviously have to use at least 44% of the year's total usage at night rate.

 

[AndyPRK]

As I see it there are 2 issues with RTS shut down.

1) Electricity charges wrong
2) Heating not working. (for those that have installs that use the contacts to switch heaters and water immersions)

The RTS are very clever things.

1) They could send a program to the meters, so they carry on switching at set times. This would have the least impact for public / all. I guess once the transmitter is shut down, they loose control then. Then again, it will be similar to those with timers.
2) They could send a final command to stay on.
3) They could send a final command to stay off. (and wait until October for people to complain why their heating isn't working)

I'm sure they will do the sensible thing (sarcasm)

 

[JohnW2]

As I see it there are 2 issues with RTS shut down.
1) Electricity charges wrong
2) Heating not working. (for those that have installs that use the contacts to switch heaters and water immersions)

Possible issues, yes. Much depends upon the designed default behaviour of the RTSs (in the absence of 'a signal) and the extent to which they can be 'commanded' in the manner you go on to suggest.

The RTS are very clever things.

Do you know about that for a fact? They have been around since the days in which what we might today call 'smart' electronics was in its infancy, if it existed at all.

1) They could send a program to the meters, so they carry on switching at set times. This would have the least impact for public / all. I guess once the transmitter is shut down, they loose control then. Then again, it will be similar to those with timers.

It would have to be the radioteleswitch itself (not the meter) which received, and acted upon, any such 'commands' since, in the early days, they were controlling totally 'dumb' electromechanical meters. However, are you sure that the system can send 'commands' for the box to respond to? I must say that I had always assumed (probably wrongly!) that they only sent 'time' information.

2) They could send a final command to stay on.
3) They could send a final command to stay off. (and wait until October for people to complain why their heating isn't working)

See above. I really don't know what is possible.

 

[Rodders53]

Anyone replacing storage heaters would surely consider heat pumps with a COP of 3-4, making the cost attractive and single rate electricity tariffs.

Air to air heat pumps like I use to heat in the shoulder months / backup to my oil burner are an option as well. 1:1 electric heating is so last Century.

It would have to be the radioteleswitch itself (not the meter) which received, and acted upon, any such 'commands' since, in the early days, they were controlling totally 'dumb' electromechanical meters. However, are you sure that the system can send 'commands' for the box to respond to? I must say that I had always assumed (probably wrongly!) that they only sent 'time' information.

See above. I really don't know what is possible.

You would if you had read the other thread "RTS turn off" and the links I provided within it.

https://www.energynetworks.org/industry/engineering-and-technical-programmes/radio-teleswitch
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_teleswitch

 

[Harry Bloomfield]

Thank you, @JohnW2 as said single rate Octopus is 23.86p/kWh and 68.17p/day standing charge for me, but it seems it varies post code to post code.

Octopus, and maybe other suppliers similar, divide the UK up into 15 areas for unit rate, and standing charge. The Octoprice web site shows this clearly.