Legislation & kitchen appliance electrical outlets

skenk · 2 Jan 2020

Switches are required for new installations in Scotland, The Scottish Building Regs Technical Handbook states:

"Where socket outlets are concealed, such as to the rear of white goods in a kitchen , separate switching should be provided in an accessible position, to allow appliances to be isolated."

EFLImpudence · 2 Jan 2020

The same problems arise in England and Wales.

'Handbook', 'should'?

What does the actual Building Regulation state?

skenk · 3 Jan 2020

The technical handbooks in Scotland provide detailed information on how to comply with the (statutory) building regs. As such they carry at least as much weight as the non statutory BS7671 Wiring Regulations. In practical terms this means if you don't put in your accessible switches for a job which has a building warrant, the building control officer is unlikely to issue your completion certificate, and you will have to go back and put them in.

JP_ · 3 Jan 2020

Wyleecoyote said:
I guess the electrician was attempting to use scare tactics to gain more work.

sounds like it. I had one in once to quote me on replacing a consumer unit, and he started talking about the need to rewire the house, for safety, he even said "you've got little ones, you don't want to take any risks", and mentioned that it might be around £4k. Another electrician looked and said existing wires totally OK, just the consumer unit needs updating!

Although Grenfell was tragic, more people die in house fires than flat fires each year, and most fires are caused by smoking, cooking , heating and candles, not washing machines.

Anyway, wouldn't a fire in an appliance trip a fuse, so turn the electric off anyway?

JohnW2 · 3 Jan 2020

jonbey said:
Although Grenfell was tragic, more people die in house fires than flat fires each year, and most fires are caused by smoking, cooking , heating and candles, not washing machines.

True. Indeed, 'electrical fire' seems to be the scapegoat that fire brigades often cite when they can find no real reason why a fire started.

jonbey said:
Anyway, wouldn't a fire in an appliance trip a fuse, so turn the electric off anyway?

Not necessarily (indeed, probably not even 'commonly') - and, in any event, turning off the electricity supply after the fire has started would not usually achieve very much.

Kind Regards, John

EFLImpudence · 3 Jan 2020

skenk said:
The technical handbooks in Scotland provide detailed information on how to comply with the (statutory) building regs.

That's why I asked what The Building Regulation actually states.

As such they carry at least as much weight as the non statutory BS7671 Wiring Regulations.

BS7671 does not call for local isolation switches nor emergency switches for appliances.

However, I disagree that a handbook has any weight if it contradicts or adds to the actual regulation.

In practical terms this means if you don't put in your accessible switches for a job which has a building warrant, the building control officer is unlikely to issue your completion certificate, and you will have to go back and put them in.

I agree some BCOs are ignorant (true meaning) jobsworths or might just have read the same incorrect information.

I think my question still stands.

Risteard · 3 Jan 2020

You're all too soft.

In the south of Ireland the installation would be uncertifiable without them, and that has been the case since 2008.

We play by big boys rules.

EFLImpudence · 3 Jan 2020

Do you tell people in the North that they must have them?

JohnW2 · 3 Jan 2020

EFLImpudence said:
However, I disagree that a handbook has any weight if it contradicts or adds to the actual regulation.

It sounds as if the situation is probably essentially the same as in England and Wales - i.e. that the actual law ('Part P' in the case of E&W) says absolutely nothing specific but that, for the vast majority of people, demonstration of compliance with that law is achieved by demonstration of compliance with (in itself, 'not mandatory') BS 76571.

In other words, the Scottish 'Handbook' is probably equivalent in this respect to BS 7671 - i.e. that the great majority of people would probably not be able to produce a convincing argument as to why something satisfied the law if it was 'non-compliant' with what 'the Handbook' (c.f. BS7671) says.

Kind Regards, John

JohnD · 3 Jan 2020

skenk said:
separate switching should be provided in an accessible position

Note the use of the word "should"

"Should" is a recommendation, not a requirement.

If they were obligatory, it would say "SHALL" or "MUST."

EFLImpudence · 3 Jan 2020

This is from the Technical Handbook:
https://www.gov.scot/publications/b...2019-domestic/4-safety/4-5-electrical-safety/

Introduction:
"The building standards technical handbooks provide guidance on achieving the standards set in the Building (Scotland) Regulations 2004. This handbook applies to a building warrant submitted on or after 1 October 2019 and to building work which does not require a warrant commenced from that date."

4.5.0
"The intention of this standard is to ensure that electrical installations are safe in terms of the hazards likely to arise from defective installations, namely fire, electric shock and burns or other personal injury. Installations should: ...
...provide means of isolating parts of the installation or equipment connected to it, as are necessary for safe working and maintenance."

To interpret that as saying above worktop switches are mandatory is surely not a given.

I cannot find anything in the BRs, but obviously they are quite long and I have not read them all.

Risteard · 3 Jan 2020

EFLImpudence said:
Do you tell people in the North that they must have them?

They never insist upon not having them so it doesn't arise.

EFLImpudence · 3 Jan 2020

JohnW2 said:
In other words, the Scottish 'Handbook' is probably equivalent in this respect to BS 7671

More equivalent to The Electricians' Guide to the Building Regulations.

JohnW2 · 3 Jan 2020

EFLImpudence said:
More equivalent to The Electricians' Guide to the Building Regulations.

Maybe, but it really depends upon what "Building (Scotland) Regulations 2004" is/are. IF those regulations (which I'm assuming are 'law') contain detailed 'requirements' (like BS 7671) then you're probably right, but if they are remotely as brief and vague as the UK Building Regulations in this respect (i.e. Part P), then I stick by what I said before.

Kind Regards, John

winston1 · 3 Jan 2020

Risteard said:
You're all too soft.

In the south of Ireland the installation would be uncertifiable without them, and that has been the case since 2008.

We play by big boys rules.

They not we. You are in the UK.

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Legislation & kitchen appliance electrical outlets

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