1930's Shell. What do i install?

[RedMango]

Hello all,

Stalked the forum for a while now reserching and learning but my mind is fried! So wondering if i can get some opinions please.

We have purchased a standard 1930's 3 bed emi house in south west england. (yet to complete) and this will be our 'forever' house so keen to do it right from the off.

House will have me and the wife, 1 bathroom but soon after we are in i aim to add a ensuite and she wants to pop out 2 kidsso hot water needs will increase.

Floor is suspended timber, 400 centre joists
Walls im presuming are single blocked plastered with render on the outside.
High cellings, im going to guess at around 2.7m

it has no central heating, boiler or radiators etc completely blank canvas, it does have gas supply though as it used to have a boiler that was ripped out.

Electrics will all be renewed as well if that matters.

My current thought process is get in, rip up all the floor, re-wire and insulate, inslauted plasterboard on the wall and insulated and board the loft. I was orginally thinking to fit underfloor heating thoughout as i thought it would be more efficent but im worried i wont be able to combat the heat loss of the old house?

If so what system? What boiler to get? I wanted a GSHP but after reserch i've realised i dont have enough space and im not paying for multiple boreholes. Will a combi boiler be enough? for us and future usage?

Lots of questions sorry, i wasnt mentally prepared for plumbing the house any help much appricated.

 

[Bod ...]

Looks a lovely house... I think if you loft is big enough have a system boiler and an unvented cylinder with a secondary hot water return. Combis are OK in smaller houses with one bathroom and if the water outlets are close to the boiler.....
Insulation is essential and good quality double or triple glazed windows to keep the heat in.


Good luck

 

[RedMango]

Looks a lovely house... I think if you loft is big enough have a system boiler and an unvented cylinder with a secondary hot water return. Combis are OK in smaller houses with one bathroom and if the water outlets are close to the boiler.....
Insulation is essential and good quality double or triple glazed windows to keep the heat in.

Good luck

I was hoping to keep the loft empty as I plan to do a loft conversion but I'm sure I could fit a cylinder in too. Presuming they need to be placed at the highest point? Do they provide good water pressure, I assume pressure is predetermined by the main supply pressure. I'll be running a new supply line. Can I put the system boiler anywhere?

 

[Bod ...]

I was hoping to keep the loft empty as I plan to do a loft conversion but I'm sure I could fit a cylinder in too. Presuming they need to be placed at the highest point? Do they provide good water pressure, I assume pressure is predetermined by the main supply pressure. I'll be running a new supply line. Can I put the system boiler anywhere?

It all depends on mains pressure. Both can go anywhere. How about the back of your garage? Frees the loft for conversion... combi will be the wrong thing yo go for if you having a loft conversion and more than one bath/shower room.

 

[RedMango]

It all depends on mains pressure. Both can go anywhere. How about the back of your garage? Frees the loft for conversion... combi will be the wrong thing yo go for if you having a loft conversion and more than one bath/shower room.

I'd rather eat into the Mrs bedroom space than my garage ok happy days, system boiler and unvented cylinder it is then. I also like that I can link it with some solar thermal panels as I'll probably get those on the south facing roof. As I'll be having a electric solar array in the garden.

Any ideas on the whole underfloor heatings Vs radiators?

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Check the mains water pressure/flow rate before you go the unvented route. Gravity systems (if you have room in the loft for the header tank) work fine, you can add pumps if you need to. Combi not a good choice for multiple bathrooms.
UFH v rads- UFH works better on solid floors (more thermal mass). Rads are much more controllable. UFH works well at lower flow temps(from ASHP or GSHP).

 

[Notch7]

If you can afford it, I would suggest getting solar installed either electric or thermal.

If electric, you can connect it to the immersion to heat the hot water and use that as an energy stiore, or if you have deeper pockets get battery storage.

note: if rip up floors that will fall under building regs and you will need to insulate to current building reg standards. But I’d suggest doing that anyway (use PIR board insulation or actis hybris). Put in as much as you can afford.

Since you are redecorating I would seriously consider fitting 50mm internal wall insulation on external wall.


Energy costs are set to rise even more - the more you spend now whilst the house is a shell, the lower your bills will be.





Forget underfloor heating or heat pump - your house won’t be sufficiently well insulated.

 

[RedMango]

If you can afford it, I would suggest getting solar installed either electric or thermal.

If electric, you can connect it to the immersion to heat the hot water and use that as an energy stiore, or if you have deeper pockets get battery storage.

note: if rip up floors that will fall under building regs and you will need to insulate to current building reg standards. But I’d suggest doing that anyway (use PIR board insulation or actis hybris). Put in as much as you can afford.

Since you are redecorating I would seriously consider fitting 50mm internal wall insulation on external wall.

Energy costs are set to rise even more - the more you spend now whilst the house is a shell, the lower your bills will be.

Forget underfloor heating or heat pump - your house won’t be sufficiently well insulated.

I've looked at the boilers and it's the same boiler I was looking at anyway so is a system boiler the same as a combi minus the tank? I wanted a Worcester Bosch 4000 and it's saying I can have that with an unvented cylinder? If that's true can I just get the boiler now (while it's 1 bath and 2 people) then fit a cylinder later when we add the extension and kids as it will probably be some time.

I have about £20k to rewire, insulate and heat but it's flexible. I will be getting an electric solar array with battery at the rear of the garden and as mentioned probably a solar thermal on the roof. The floor is coming up regardless for wiring, but I'm not sure how much I can fit due to the joists probably being quite thin. What is the recommended PIR size?

 

[Diver Fred]

External Wall Insulation - that will mean all the walls become part of the 'Heat Store' of the house. You will never regret it.
Internal wall insulation will warm up quicker and cool down quicker.
If you are on a water meter you want the hot water source (boiler or tank) as close as possible to the main user point of hot water.

 

[RedMango]

So done more research, I think I need to get in to check the water pressure but I'm leaning towards a high rated combi now

I think for our current needs a combi will be adequate. We have 1 bathroom, washing up is done via a dishwasher and really can't see any reason I'll need hot water the same time the Mrs is running a bath.

When we do the extension later down the line plus kids we'll only be adding an ensuite probably shower only so I can install an electric shower and therefore no extra demand on the boiler. We'll probably be having a few baths but as we'd just have 1 tub it won't be simultaneously so a combi should be fine?

Appreciate the important though, I'm also disregarding UFH and just going with radiators.

Are there any regs on how I lay the radiator pipping under the floor? Hoping to use plastic pipe with easy fit then copper tails to the rads.

 

[oldbutnotdead]

Electric showers are a bit poor at the best...plus having a storage cylinder is a handy energy sink for PV or wet solar. Nothing wrong with (for instance) using the cylinder hot water at the bath and combi hot water at the kitchen and ensuite.
Heating pipes under the floor- supported and insulated. If you use Speedfit, get the locking collars so the insulation doesn't push onto the release collar. I personally don't like having Speedfit (or compression) fittings where I can't get at them, plus the fittings are bulky, expensive and difficult to insulate properly.

 

[RedMango]

Electric showers are a bit poor at the best...plus having a storage cylinder is a handy energy sink for PV or wet solar. Nothing wrong with (for instance) using the cylinder hot water at the bath and combi hot water at the kitchen and ensuite.
Heating pipes under the floor- supported and insulated. If you use Speedfit, get the locking collars so the insulation doesn't push onto the release collar. I personally don't like having Speedfit (or compression) fittings where I can't get at them, plus the fittings are bulky, expensive and difficult to insulate properly.

I agree but I've had them in all the properties I've had so think I'm used to them now, a decent 10kw Mira with a 30kw combi I'm hoping is ok, certainly better than I have now and I'm not too concerned. I did like the idea of solar storage though and tbh I will probably change my mind between system vs combi a million times before I can get in to the property. Another option I've seen is Viessmann do a combi/storage boiler, from what I gather is a normal combi but with a small tank inside... something for me to ponder over the next few months I think.

Yes i was hoping to go with JG speedfit stuff as its very DIY friendly but I'm not scared of giving copper ago, do you think the price of the pex fittings out way the most expensive copper pipes?

 

[Bod ...]

I'd rather eat into the Mrs

That's bit rude for a DIY forum

 

[Bod ...]

Check the mains water pressure/flow rate before you go the unvented route. Gravity systems (if you have room in the loft for the header tank) work fine, you can add pumps if you need to. Combi not a good choice for multiple bathrooms.
UFH v rads- UFH works better on solid floors (more thermal mass). Rads are much more controllable. UFH works well at lower flow temps(from ASHP or GSHP).

Hate pumps just to much to go wrong far to much water in a freezing loft. Takes out the possibility of extending up.

 

[flameport]

, a decent 10kw Mira with a 30kw combi I'm hoping is ok,

The worst possible choice.

Electric showers shove a very high load onto the electrical system - something which should be avoided now, and might not even be possible in the future.
Combi boilers are of no use if you want to heat water using your solar. Like it not - gas boilers are going away and if you have a combi now, you will have to install that hot water cylinder in the future.

I was orginally thinking to fit underfloor heating thoughout as i thought it would be more efficent but im worried i wont be able to combat the heat loss of the old house?

Heating systems should be sized to the heat requirements of the property. The fact it's an 'old house' doesn't change that, and neither does the heat source or how its distributed.
Old properties certainly need much better insulation installing. So do plenty of new ones.

Unfortunately plenty of heating systems have been incorrectly sized because those installing them were either lazy or clueless, and that is where the nonsense about old homes not being suitable for heat pumps comes from.