Adding more Economy 7 sockets

[JohnW2]

Yep, E7 so all the house switches over to the off-peak rate. The black "meter" is a radio-teleswitch that controls the meter rate dials & switches the off-peak load on

Indeed, but with that arrangement we can now see, surely it is inevitable that (as I would have expected) during the off-peak periods, the entire installation's power would be metered as 'night units' (and none as 'normal' units) by that dual-tariff meter - which appears to be at variance with what the OP suggested was happening?

Kind Regards, John

 

[westie101]

the entire installation's power would be metered as 'night units' (and none as 'normal' units) by that dual-tariff meter

Correct, so to go back to the original question all the OP needs to do is purchase some timeswitches to control washer, dryer etc. so they can switch on in the off-peak period.
No need for additional circuits and the expense of such.

But set them so they don't all switch on at the same time, allow, say, 15 minutes between each.

 

[westie101]

Just to drift a bit but it does bring up an interesting point. When a network is designed it is based on the load requirements from a developer or such with maximum loads stated.
Now for off-peak supplies we would look to not overload the incoming supply so would only allow up to 20kW of off-peak at single phase
But that design system does not take account of modern life, so if a customer has washer, dryer & dish washer and chooses to use them in the off-peak period that adds (for a short time and with diversity) potentially 9kW switching on with the off-peak load and thus potentially overloading the cut-out!
In reality we don't see this occurring, but ....

 

[JohnW2]

Correct, so to go back to the original question all the OP needs to do is purchase some timeswitches to control washer, dryer etc. so they can switch on in the off-peak period. No need for additional circuits and the expense of such.

Indeed - provided that the off-peak periods dictated by the teleswitch were sufficiently predicable to allow that. If they weren't adequately predictable, it would get somewhat more complicated.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Now for off-peak supplies we would look to not overload the incoming supply so would only allow up to 20kW of off-peak at single phase ... But that design system does not take account of modern life, so if a customer has washer, dryer & dish washer and chooses to use them in the off-peak period that adds (for a short time and with diversity) potentially 9kW switching on with the off-peak load and thus potentially overloading the cut-out! In reality we don't see this occurring, but ....

I don't think you mean "9kW" but, yes, I can see that as a potential problem.

In fact, the whole thing could become a bit of a vicious circle. The whole concept of cheap off-peak electricity is to presumably to encourage people to use more of their electricity during those (hitherto) low-demand periods, thus optimising usage of the available generating capacity. However if, encouraged by the 'cheapness', very large numbers of people started utilising a high proportion of their electricity during those periods, they would cease to be 'low demand' periods, and hence would destroy the concept of cheap off-peak electricity! In the extreme case, you might even see the 'low demand' and 'peak demand' times of the day reversing, so I imagine that people must be keeping close eyes on the evolution of this situation!

Kind Regards, John

 

[AndyPRK]

I don't think its too much of a problem.

Most people who use gas heating (except you john) won't have E7 so that will balance out the E7 users who use the electric at night.

 

[JohnW2]

I don't think its too much of a problem. Most people who use gas heating (except you john) won't have E7 so that will balance out the E7 users who use the electric at night.

That's true, and I haven't a clue as to how many people actually still do use storage heaters, and hence have a 'conventional' reason for having E7. However, westie obviously thought that it was a sufficiently possible potential issue to mention it.

I would really have expected that the electricity industry would do more to encourage (i.e. 'incentivise', by off-peak tariffs) people, even those without storage heaters, to use a higher proportion of their electricity at night since, at present, our generating facilities are very much under-used at night whilst, during the day they are stretched to the extent that we have to import. If they ever do more in the way of encouraging/'incentivising' more nocturnal electricity consumption, then maybe the matter which westie raised could become more of an issue.

Kind Regards, John

 

[westie101]

However, westie obviously thought that it was a sufficiently possible potential issue to mention it.

In terms of the overall UK grid it is no problem,
In terms of a housing estate designed for n x 20kW and potentially seeing n x 20kW & washers, dryers etc it can be
In terms of potentially putting up to 29 kW on a cut-out rated at 23kW it is.

 

[JohnW2]

In terms of the overall UK grid it is no problem,
In terms of a housing estate designed for n x 20kW and potentially seeing n x 20kW & washers, dryers etc it can be
In terms of potentially putting up to 29 kW on a cut-out rated at 23kW it is.

Thanks. That all makes sense.

Kind Regards, John

 

[Avocet]

Yep, E7 so all the house switches over to the off-peak rate. The black "meter" is a radio-teleswitch that controls the meter rate dials & switches the off-peak load on

Thanks for that - though I'm still slightly puzzled - partly because I seem to use very little off-peak electricity (according to my bills) even though I think I use a fair bit!) and partly because when I switched a storage heater on I watched my little usage monitor and it showed no increase in consumption - despite the storage heater starting to get warm! Also, if you switch on the storage heaters in the day they won't get warm.

I guess I might well have got the sensor clamped around the wrong cable though. Is the thing you call a radio teleswitch the large black box in the top right hand corner of the meter cupboard? Do you know what the other black box that it goes into is for, and the two smaller ones to the right of it? Is it possible from that photo to guess what it is that I've got the usage monitor clamped around? I guess the heavy black cable (bottom left of the photo) is the incoming electricity supply?

 

[AndyPRK]

The cables coming out of the switch on the bottom right where you have clamped ;

The one you clamped is the house electrics
The other is the storage heaters.

If you were able to put it round the red wire from the meter it would record everything but not sure there is enough slack

 

[JohnW2]

I switched a storage heater on I watched my little usage monitor and it showed no increase in consumption - despite the storage heater starting to get warm! ... I guess I might well have got the sensor clamped around the wrong cable though.

Yes, as Andy says, you have got it wrong if you want to see the storage heater usage. If you look at the bottom that white isolator (just above your sensor), you will see that the left-hand outgoing cable (on which you have your sensor) is labelled 'Day rate' (i.e. your normal sockets etc.) and the right-hand one is labelled 'Night rate' (i.e. just the storage heaters).

Also, if you switch on the storage heaters in the day they won't get warm.

That is 'as expected'. That teleswitch only switches on the supply to the storage heaters during 'cheap' periods. If you wanted to be able to switch them on at other times (e.g. during the day), then you would need a somewhat more complicated setup.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

In fact, the whole thing could become a bit of a vicious circle. The whole concept of cheap off-peak electricity is to presumably to encourage people to use more of their electricity during those (hitherto) low-demand periods, thus optimising usage of the available generating capacity. However if, encouraged by the 'cheapness', very large numbers of people started utilising a high proportion of their electricity during those periods, they would cease to be 'low demand' periods, and hence would destroy the concept of cheap off-peak electricity! In the extreme case, you might even see the 'low demand' and 'peak demand' times of the day reversing, so I imagine that people must be keeping close eyes on the evolution of this situation!

It's all heading towards smart metering, constantly changing prices, appliances which negotiate when they'll start etc.

Your description of the problem reminds me of my Dad's theory when they introduced a 2-tier postal service - he said everybody should use 2nd class, as then what would they do?

 

[JohnW2]

It's all heading towards smart metering, constantly changing prices, appliances which negotiate when they'll start etc.

Quite possibly - but I'm not sure that many of us will still be around by the time that can be implemented in a big way.

Your description of the problem reminds me of my Dad's theory when they introduced a 2-tier postal service - he said everybody should use 2nd class, as then what would they do?

I suppose that's a bit different, in that if everyone used 2nd Class, it would still be possible for that to be an inferior (hence presumably cheaper to implement) service than would have been the case with 1st Class.

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I think the point with the post was that if there was no high-priority mail they'd just have to get on and deal with all of the mail at the same time, just as they had been doing before.