Advice on Ideal Response 80 Combi

[Donncha]

Hello Forum!
Anyone able to give me some advice about work on a Combi Ideal Response 80?
A Brit Gas engineer (maybe a contractor not their own man?) said I needed a new expansion vessel and also PRV. I was forced to agree. Job done and billed. Later I tested the old EV and decided nothing was wrong with it. A visit from BG Service Mgr confirmed it was sound and they agreed to modify invoice. New invoice arrived and BG said quote<<< With regards a breakdown on the current, revised invoice, I presume that Dave has estimated the cost of replacing the expansion tank and reduced the invoice appropriately, as the majority of the labour charge would be associated with the pressure relief valve >>> unquote.
They had eliminated the (inflated!) price of the EV and left the labour at the same two hours. This seemed strange to me as the service manual suggests the work involved in replacing EV is much more complicated than changing the PRV and is really a separate exercise. In theory replacing PRV is just a matter of unscrewing the old one and screwing in the new one but the service manual says the pump must be removed to get at it.
Someone somewhere (on some other forum I think) said this might be a good deal less than an hour’s work for a DIY person.
Could any kind plumber who knows this combi give me an idea of the time involved in (a) changing a PRV and (b) changing the EV (there IS at least the required 600mm clearance above the boiler). In other words: does it seem unreasonable for BG to make the same labour charge for (a) without (b).
Thanks
Don

 

[ChrisR]

Hello Forum!
Anyone able to give me some advice about work on a Combi Ideal Response 80?
A Brit Gas engineer (maybe a contractor not their own man?) said I needed a new expansion vessel and also PRV. I was forced to agree. Job done and billed. Later I tested the old EV and decided nothing was wrong with it. A visit from BG Service Mgr confirmed it was sound and they agreed to modify invoice. New invoice arrived and BG said quote<<< With regards a breakdown on the current, revised invoice, I presume that Dave has estimated the cost of replacing the expansion tank and reduced the invoice appropriately, as the majority of the labour charge would be associated with the pressure relief valve >>> unquote.
They had eliminated the (inflated!) price of the EV and left the labour at the same two hours. This seemed strange to me as the service manual suggests the work involved in replacing EV is much more complicated than changing the PRV and is really a separate exercise. In theory replacing PRV is just a matter of unscrewing the old one and screwing in the new one but the service manual says the pump must be removed to get at it.
Someone somewhere (on some other forum I think) said this might be a good deal less than an hour’s work for a DIY person.
Could any kind plumber who knows this combi give me an idea of the time involved in (a) changing a PRV and (b) changing the EV (there IS at least the required 600mm clearance above the boiler). In other words: does it seem unreasonable for BG to make the same labour charge for (a) without (b).
Thanks
Don

Hard to read all in bold, so I copied it first.....


It's nonsense.
The prv is a pig to change, so nearly everyone just changes its head. Changing the whole thing can be near impossible, the pipes are up behind and get bent about so you just can't get a spanner to it. Maybe about 2% of diyers would have a go at that, you need exactly the right tools.

FOr both jobs you need to drain the boiler.
If you're changing the expansion vessel, you'd be mad not to change the prv (head at least) as well.

I'm slowish average, I've done a few EVs, lots of PRVs.

Then , if everything is easy access, both top and side, the the EV would take ME about 20 minutes, the prv head about 3 mionutes, and the whole prv maybe 20 minutes, depending.
Then refilling takes a few minutes.

If ther's the slightes difficulty in accessing things, like if it's up a ladder or in the corner of a kitchen so you have to twist, or ther's stuff under the boiler in the way, you can MULTIPLY those times by 2, or 3 , or maybe more, It really makes a big difference.
I have given up on changing both those things with the boiler in situ (but not just the head of the prv)
SO have a look up at the prv , or perhaps you remember what he changed?
If it took 2 hours to do both, splitting it in two would be fair I'd have thought.

 

[petit_pablo]

I dont understand why the charges were incurred in the first place. If your on contract it should have been covered, if your not then a one off repair would have covered it?

The PRV can be removed in situ without removing the pump if access underneath is ok. 2hrs labour is steep for doing it BUT, its about the same price as having a one off repair @ £168+ dependant on region.

 

[ChrisR]

I've not found that removing the pump helps very much!
PRV looks like this

The red bit is often changed by itself,
There's v little spanner room, to change the whole thing..

 

[Donncha]

God bless you both Petit Pablo and ChrisR for your reply. So quick it took me by surprise!
Sorry about the bold – I am nearly blind and tend to use “big and bold”!
Yes, I think they only changed the head as I asked for the old pieces to be left and only got the red bit. It was cruddy and it probably needed changing – if for no other reason than that it was an easy cheap job. You tell me what I suspected – that the red bit was just a quick job and the whole thing a pig (I had thought a female dog when I saw the picture).
There was a break in a care package and BG needed to make a “first inspection”. I was not there when either the original inspection was done nor when the work was done.
As BG charged labour at the “reduced rate” of £50 an hour I wont be too hard on them and offer to pay for an hour’s labour instead of the two!!
Having looked at the manual I think if I had to change the EV I think I too would opt to take the unit off the wall, but I don’t know if they did this.
I am really grateful for your quick and informative responses.
Cheers
Don

 

[kevindgas]

its a crock of ****e boiler, they should have charged you danger money for even touching it!

2 hours seems reasonable to me for changing the EV as it could be a pig to get out.
i did a worcester the other day 2.5 hours, then it leaked from the isolation valves (got called back as customer worried) i re visited a couple of times as a courtesy to make sure it had stopped dripping. customer was charged a half day rate as over 2 hours.

 

[Agile]

Chris is obviously far quicker that I am at repairs.

But I do a basic service and performance check on all my visits as well.

I would expect about 45 min to change the PRV head and fully check the boiler.

The EXV depends a lot on how much space there is on the right of the boiler.

But again before I would even change a part I would fully test the old one as I never change parts unless they are failed.

In London the effort and time are taken in getting there so I like to relax and take my time on the boiler. It can take 10 minutes to drink the coffee.

Tony

 

[Boilerman2]

It is very hard to judge labour times I had a nightmare on a Hermann Combi this week, just replace the HW Diaphragm!!!! MI gives very little away, its a standard Giannoni Shunt Valve (should take about 30mins) BUT due to the position of the boiler, and the location of the valve within the boiler it took TWO ENGINEERS 3 Hours! including removal of boiler from the wall to achieve a repair - the cost to the client?????

 

[Deleted member 105431]

It is very hard to judge labour times I had a nightmare on a Hermann Combi this week, just replace the HW Diaphragm!!!! MI gives very little away, its a standard Giannoni Shunt Valve (should take about 30mins) BUT due to the position of the boiler, and the location of the valve within the boiler it took TWO ENGINEERS 3 Hours! including removal of boiler from the wall to achieve a repair - the cost to the client?????

Take the plate and diverter out enbloc is the trick mate, personally I just prize out the diaphragm and change that alone. **** design though

 

[Agile]

and the location of the valve within the boiler it took TWO ENGINEERS 3 Hours! including removal of boiler from the wall to achieve a repair - the cost to the client?????

Well, seeing that it leaves me wondering how much you did charge!

I always do repairs on a fixed price basis. That one would have been about £106 if out in the open. Perhaps a max of £136 if too well boxed in.

I dont see how more hands can make it any quicker.

Tony

 

[Boilerman2]

Hi Agile
It was one of those situations the First Engineer called for help at 5-00PM so there it is, unfortunately the Diverter/ Plate would not come out in situ cos they couldn't get a spanner on the Heating flow union with the boiler on the wall it is tighht in a corner

As for cost I am quite sure it will be a money looser

 

[Donncha]

As I was posting on another matter (of our home boiler) I saw this topic where I never reported to the forum the outcome of the help you gave me about this Ideal boiler (in a rented flat).
Based on your advice I battled with British Gas and two months and about 20 emails later they agreed to reduce their labour charge to what seemed to me reasonably reasonable - 1 hour at their "reduced rate" of £50. This was what I had decided was fair (my post of 3 August above).
But it was like getting blood out of a stone