air vent type?

[doyle]

over cautious maybe, but the guy who went to prison wasnt, he who relied on mfr setting being correct prior to mfr painting it over to say leave alone do not touch.

fair a gas rate would have shown fault and that was what imprisoned the installer, but it does not remove the fact it should have been set right at mfr.

now if we lookat the cars when cat convertors came out what problems existed then, cats failed all the time.

cats in fires is pretty new technoligy, we do not yet no how many cats will bund or break or simply just fail.

one good ting is though, whilst nobody fits them, the mfr cant shift them so nobody will end up stocking them and production ends.

oh yes by the way

doesnt need to be damaged all it needs is incomplete combustion to overwhelm the cats capability

 

[adiwill]

okay , but from this thread all i'm pikcing up is a lot of negativity based on ONE installation and fatality (which appears to be blamed on an installation oversight and NOT a failure of the fire itself) coupled with a lot of guessing about the reliability of cats, which lets face it are now old and VERY well proved technology.

sorry, but thats not completely rational, is it? Forgive me for being so argumentative but i'm just hearing a lot of theories and scaremongering , and no facts.

Plus, i ask again, will a good monoxide detector not virtually eliminate this risk?

 

[bobthebender]

I have fitted 4..3 for builders who find them cheaper than building a chimney and one in my father-in-laws house
They are well tested in the USA,Australia and Japan.
This is Taken from the Burley website....Deaths caused by flueless gas fires in America 0
Deaths caused by flued heaters in the United Kingdom 1,000

Fact. Fixed flueless gas fires have an outstanding
safety record.
Although flueless gas fires are relatively new in this country
they have a long established history in Japan (where there are
40 million), the United States and Australia. In the United
States there are approximately 15 million flueless gas fires in
use, (by coincidence this is approximately the same as the
number of flued gas fires in use in the United Kingdom). The
safety record of flued heating in the UK and flueless gas fires
in the US over the past 20 years is as follows:

You make your own mind up.

 

[gas4you]

Deaths in the UK from flued appliances are usually down to incompetence on someones behalf, that same could happen with flueless fires. But if the cat gives out then there will be no warning, so incompetence will not come into it.

Why do we always have to follow the yanks? Hundreds of or boys have died in Iraq because of it, so now I suppose householders will die because of it

 

[doyle]

okay , but from this thread all i'm pikcing up is a lot of negativity based on ONE installation and fatality (which appears to be blamed on an installation oversight and NOT a failure of the fire itself) coupled with a lot of guessing about the reliability of cats, which lets face it are now old and VERY well proved technology.

sorry, but thats not completely rational, is it? Forgive me for being so argumentative but i'm just hearing a lot of theories and scaremongering , and no facts.

Plus, i ask again, will a good monoxide detector not virtually eliminate this risk?

a chip pan is old technoligy but fires still happen, smoke alarms became the new technoligy but fires still happen and battery's do not get replace even in todays modern world.
a carbon monoxide alarm is only good as its possition and its general usage. this does not remove the fact that a good sized vent is needed and your living romm is now going to be drafty.
good luck enjoy your fire mate

 

[adiwill]

those are both cop-out answers... i asked for facts as to why these fires are supposedly more dangerous than there non-cat conventional equivalents. I havent seen the answer yet.

FACTS please. not scaremongering. Has anyone got any examples of where the cat failed on an appliance causing death or permanent injury?

a carbon monoxide alarm is only good as its possition and its general usage. this does not remove the fact that a good sized vent is needed and your living room is now going to be drafty.

i'l take that as a 'yes, a monoxide detector will reduce the risk' then... the same as it would with any conventional appliance.
PS i've already said i'm going to get the correct vent fitted.

 

[Dan Robinson]

virtually eliminate this risk

reduce yes, but virtually eliminate, no. A CO detector must never be used to get around other safety features/requirements.

They are more dangerous because if the cat converter fails, all the nasty stuff is going straight into the room. With a flued appliance, of any kind there is a path for the nasties to go to the outside.

The ventilation is to provide a source of fresh air, but there is still no direct path to the outside - hence you are relying on a naturally degrading component to clean nasty things out of the products of combustion. What has been stated earlier in this post is that no one really knows how long these things last and what their failure rate is.

As with all aspects of the Gas regs, a safety devices such as ventilation or anti-vitiation device are there to work perminately.

We have had this argument with people for years about permanent ventilation - client says they open a window, we say what if you forget or someone house sits and doesn't know, or you sell up?


As installers and engineers, we can not rely on the fact that YOU may know that something needs checking/maintaining/doing. You may not be there for the rest of that appliance life cycle.

 

[adiwill]

again, thats an irrelevant post that still doesnt give me any facts mate.. you're just saying 'because if the cat fails' , which without anything to back it up is just words.

The fact is that cats dont just fail.. they go on for years and years. Its not a mechanical or electrical item which is prone to breaking down or failures.. its just an element which simply will not stop working unless severely damaged. Its like quartz or something. It just does its job.

The average lifespan of a cat on a car is 15-20+ good years, and they get a hell of a lot more stress, heat, and contaminants than they would stuck on the top of a fire. Yet everyone seems to be basing this as their argument? without proof, which none of you seem to have, then how am i supposed to take these points seriously?

Has your cat ever 'just failed' on your car in the last twenty years since they were introduced? for no reason ?(engine failure excepted) ?
No? so why do you think its suddenly going to fail just because its stuck on the top of a gas fire?

 

[gas4you]

If a cat fails on a car so what, next mot you will be told you need a new one, you won't know its failed though until then. If cat on your fire fails then you won't be here to have to pay for a new one.

Unfortunately there are no definite answers for you, but anything made by man can and will go wrong. Do you want to be in your room when your cat does fail

 

[adiwill]

trust me on this mate i know how many cats fail for reasons other than what are consequences of an engine problem,and its very very very few believe me.

Youre missing the point... The fact is that they dont fail unless damaged in another way and will quite happily last in excess of twenty years or more. So why should it suddenly fail if its installed in a gas fire?

If you can answer that i'll start listening.

 

[bobthebender]

This is pasted from the Burley web and i don't have a problem with fitting them if that is what the customer wants.

When does the catalytic converter need replacing?
To constantly test the performance of the catalytic converter, our laboratory has
been running appliances eight hours per day, five days per week, for up to seven
years. We purposely go out of our way to abuse and damage the catalytic converter
by reproducing occurrences which could feasibly happen in the home (although we
do not suggest you try this). We spray it with a range of common household
chemicals and sprays, burn contaminating materials in the fire, run the fire on a
much higher gas pressure and also on the wrong types of gas. Periodically we send
catalytic converters back to the manufacturer for testing. After the equivalent of 30
years of use, the catalytic converter is as efficient as it was when brand new.
Burley manages to achieve this by designing the fire to ensure that the catalytic
converter is in exactly the right position for long life and maximum efficiency. (For
other makes of fire please consult the relevant manufacturer).

 

[adiwill]

thanks bob.. you're the only one who's coming up with facts..

 

[gas4you]

thanks bob.. you're the only one who's coming up with facts..

Hes the only one whos saying what you want to hear

I would never have the fitting of a flueless fire on my conscience even if a customer offered me £10,000 to fit it.

Whats your headstone gonna read, 'I told them a cat can never fail'

 

[Dan Robinson]

Yes Bob that is all well and good.

This was paste from Potterton web site:

All Potterton products benefit from world class manufacturing skills and one of the largest and most experienced research development teams in the industry. They are designed to be inherently reliable and to meet the most demanding user needs.

This was pasted from the Ideal website:

To ensure their reliability, each of our boilers is subjected to an extraordinarily stringent regime of product assessment. This includes rigorous application testing, as well as extensive laboratory and field trials.

From a name you can depend on
The Ideal brand is one of the most respected in the heating business. It is trusted by the trade and relied upon by homeowners to provide a long lasting, first-class service in all kinds of different homes and for all manner of different applications. Ideal's reputation for reliability and innovation is backed by the commitment and dedication of everyone connected with the company to deliver cost-effective, highquality products and solutions, all backed by an unbeatable customer and after-sales service.

All manufacturer's say they're the best. So what?

Adiwill is committed to ignoring what gas engineers have had to say simply because he believes that being a mechanic (assumption I know) is more than enough to qualify him to comment on a cross over technology. Yes the professionals here do seem to be negative about flueless gas fires; but that is simply because they are having to insure these things against causing death and serious brain damage. It is our livelihoods, so our prorrogative.

What is the temperature of an exhaust from a car? Lower than that of the gas fire I would wager. Hopefully this is taken into account by the maunfactuerer. And to answer one of your questions. Yes I have had a cat go on my last van. A Vauxhall Combo S reg. I got rid of it 5 years ago too so it was less than 15 years. My old man has an N or P reg Combo and he still has his working fine - he does a lot of long distance, I do a lot of city driving (back then at least).

I have also fitted two flueless gas fires in the same property. So I am not against them persey; But I made damn sure there was unclosable vent fitted into the windows first.

We have given you our reasons for not liking them. We are the ones tasked with fitting them. You asked us for our advise which we have gladly given you nd for free. If you don't want to take it then fine.

---------------------

With a flued appliance, of any kind there is a path for the nasties to go to the outside.

The ventilation is to provide a source of fresh air, but there is still no direct path to the outside - hence you are relying on a naturally degrading component to clean nasty things out of the products of combustion.

These are facts by the way.

As Gas4You stated. I would prefer a cat to go in my car for any reason than have one in my living room and not find out about. And trust me with CO poisening, if you live to tell the tale, you will proably be too gah gah to know about it - and I have seen someone who has lost it completely from CO poisening.

Scratch that - there were two in the house - one was worse than the other. But it was a sad thing to see. The former is now living in a home with permanent brain damage.

 

[adiwill]

What is the temperature of an exhaust from a car? Lower than that of the gas fire I would wager.

no mate a car exhaust manifold can hit temperatures of between 600-800 degrees in the right circumstances. and no, i'm not a mechanic.

look, all i want is facts about cats failing on flueless fires.. despite all your arguments none of you can give me that. its pure speculation and scaremmongering.

conversation over... sorry, i'm not convinced. None of you have put up a good argument as to why these fires are actually dangerous.