British Gas Requirements

[asthpsw]

I rent out a property (not to make profit...because I can't afford to sell it currently!)..........So I got all the safety features sorted re electric (5 year certificate) & the Central Heating (warm Air) serviced by the same guy who looked after it for the previous 10 years. He also gave me a Landlords Gas Safety Certificate (6 months ago).

I wanted (for the Tenants) someone who would look after the Gas, Electrics, drain, Plumbing etc & be available at short notice......my usual man could not guarantee getting parts for the Warm Air unit (15 years old) so I took out British Gas "Homecare".

When they came to inspect to see if they could cover the Warm Air unit & get parts they (British Gas) loaded me with a load of other requirements related to ventilation................that wasn't a requirement when my usual guy did the Landlords Certificate (he only wanted me to protect the flue as it passed through the Airing Cupboard)

British Gas Require me to have (because the "new" regulations say so) :

a)The vent covered up that feeds air into the cupboard that contains the Warm Air unit.............this vent is through the floor into the cupboard.

b) the vent in the BOTTOM of door to the cupboard that has the warm air unit in increased in capacity (he gave me something like 240cm2/min but just means changing the vent for one that hasn't got vertical slats)

c) A vent to the ROOM that contains the Cupboard opened up.......this means going through brickwork as the vent seems only to go into the cavity wall..............this will be some expense.

d) a strap on the flue as it passes through the loft space.

I make the point that this "ventilation" is all to do with the gas burning & not getting Air to heat & vent around the house through the ducting....there is a mega grill & ducting for this.

So what has changed since my usual guy done the Landlords Gas Safety Certificate ? or is this a try on ?
Why actually reduce a method of ventilation off (through the floor) ?

Paul

 

[Mr Smyth]

Really need to see this to comment fully.

There are some ventilation configurations for Warm Air Units (WAU) that differ from the conventional. These are manufacturer specific and normally include a shaft/pipe coming down from the loft space. If this is the case then the BG engineer may be mistaken.

Conventional ventilation for an appliance in a compartment means that there should be ventilation from outside into the room that the compartment is situated. This will need to be of a certain size based upon the size of the WAU.

The compartment then needs to be ventilated at high and low level by vents communicating with that ventilated room. Again these vents are of a certain size.

From what I read in your post (and guessing) the vent in the floor within the compartment communicates with outside air via the ventilated floor space and the top vent goes into the room which in turn is not ventilated.

The configuration of the vents is therefore wrong and the BG engineer seems to be correct.

The correct ventilation for an open flued appliance is vital for its safe operation.

'So what has changed since my usual guy done the Landlords Gas Safety Certificate ?' No, perhaps best to ask your engineer that question.

'or is this a try on ?' - No, you invited BG into you home to check and comment upon the gas installation. BG have told you there maybe a risk to safety and told you what you need to do to sort it out. It seems the engineer has gone into detail to explain things.

'Why actually reduce a method of ventilation off (through the floor) ?' - No, not reduce just put the vents in the right place.

Hope this helps, although perhaps not what you want to hear?

 

[Mr Smyth]

[/b]They are not just BG requirements

 

[Agile]

c. seems to be a safety issue if the primary ventilation for combustion is from the cavity rather than directly from the outside ( with the cavity isolated ).

You are lucky he did not condemm and turn off the WAU !

Tony

 

[nickso]

I wanted (for the Tenants) someone who would look after the Gas, Electrics, drain, Plumbing etc & be available at short notice......my usual man could not guarantee getting parts for the Warm Air unit (15 years old) so I took out British Gas "Homecare".

the parts BG get are freely available to anyone else. having a BG contract does not guarantee the availability of obsolete parts. i suspect "your usual man" was getting a bit lazy or itching to put a new unit in.

When they came to inspect to see if they could cover the Warm Air unit & get parts they (British Gas) loaded me with a load of other requirements related to ventilation................that wasn't a requirement when my usual guy did the Landlords Certificate (he only wanted me to protect the flue as it passed through the Airing Cupboard)

nothing to do with BG. the ventilation requirements are not theirs. your man either didnt know them or didnt care. aside from the cross ventilation issue i find most WAU requirements have been ignored from insatllation, what BG are asking you to now is probably what was required when the WAU was installed.

a)The vent covered up that feeds air into the cupboard that contains the Warm Air unit.............this vent is through the floor into the cupboard.

b) the vent in the BOTTOM of door to the cupboard that has the warm air unit in increased in capacity (he gave me something like 240cm2/min but just means changing the vent for one that hasn't got vertical slats)

c) A vent to the ROOM that contains the Cupboard opened up.......this means going through brickwork as the vent seems only to go into the cavity wall..............this will be some expense.

d) a strap on the flue as it passes through the loft space.

without seeing the installation that sounds about right. its cm2 though, not cm2/min.

no mention of it but i hope he left the installation classed as at risk and gave you the suitable paperwork to back it up.

 

[BingoBongo]

yep ar and advised to turn off

inadequate compartment and combustion ventilation

and cross ventilation

i would be asking your handyman for a refund

 

[kirkgas]

this is the type of scenario i love quoting to guys to try to get them to focus on what is required, they and their customers get this sort of thing done all the time, where someone else looks at their work and picks up on something that has been missed for years, i ask the question "how do you justify to your customer that you have not done your job correctly for the last x years?" if it is a change of regs etc that is easily explained but the scenario described here leaves the original service guy without a leg to stand on and can damage a long built up reputation.

 

[mickyg]

handyman

 

[asthpsw]

He wasn't/isn't a Handyman..............he infact runs a business of three Corgi/Gas safe Engineers...........& yes he is one himself.

 

[muggles]

Maybe so but he's still missed vital points whilst doing his safety checks. IMHO as a bare minimum the four basic areas to look at for a safety check are Flue, Ventilation, Safety Controls and Gas Rate, and I'm sure a lot of the guys on here would agree with me on that.

Ventilation through a floor is not allowed unless it is properly ducted to a vent on the outside wall. There should be vents at both the top and the bottom of the cupboard, to provide a good circulation of combustion air and also to provide air for cooling purposes. As it's ventilating into a room, there should be 10cm² per KW of total net heat input at high level and 20cm² per KW at low level. The two vents should have as great a distance between them as is practicable. The room in which the cupboard is situated should have 5cm² of ventilation direct to outside air for every KW of net heat input over 7kw.

I'd normally say Homecare, or anything to do with British Gas, is not worth the money they charge, but it seems that they've picked up valid points here.

It shouldn't actually cost you anything beyond the materials - if you're reasonably handy you can sort the ventilation requirements out yourself, just make sure you purchase compliant vents - the holes should be large enough to pass a 5mm diameter ball but small enough not to allow the passage of a 10mm ball. The vent in the outside wall must be sealed to the cavity, IE it should pass all the way through with no breaks, you cannot simply cut a hole and fit a grille on the inner skin and do the same on the outer skin, there must be a duct connecting them.

Hope this helps

 

[kirkgas]

Maybe so but he's still missed vital points whilst doing his safety checks. IMHO as a bare minimum the four basic areas to look at for a safety check are Flue, Ventilation, Safety Controls and Gas Rate, and I'm sure a lot of the guys on here would agree with me on that.

Ventilation through a floor is not allowed unless it is properly ducted to a vent on the outside wall. There should be vents at both the top and the bottom of the cupboard, to provide a good circulation of combustion air and also to provide air for cooling purposes. As it's ventilating into a room, there should be 10cm² per KW of total net heat input at high level and 20cm² per KW at low level. The two vents should have as great a distance between them as is practicable. The room in which the cupboard is situated should have 5cm² of ventilation direct to outside air for every KW of net heat input over 7kw.

I'd normally say Homecare, or anything to do with British Gas, is not worth the money they charge, but it seems that they've picked up valid points here.

It shouldn't actually cost you anything beyond the materials - if you're reasonably handy you can sort the ventilation requirements out yourself, just make sure you purchase compliant vents - the holes should be large enough to pass a 5mm diameter ball but small enough not to allow the passage of a 10mm ball. The vent in the outside wall must be sealed to the cavity, IE it should pass all the way through with no breaks, you cannot simply cut a hole and fit a grille on the inner skin and do the same on the outer skin, there must be a duct connecting them.


this post has a very in depth description of what you need, but i would comment on the point of underfloor vent needing to be ducted to outside, IF this is a requirement of WAU then i stand corrected, although i dont think it is, a vent for an open flued appliance can be vented to underfloor, if it is verified that there is sufficient ventilation to outside, and should only require to be ducted if there is a possibility of RADON gas permeating through the ground and being drawn into the appliance and effecting combustion. i await being shot down (again )
Hope this helps

 

[simond]

It used to be common for warm air units to be provided with combustion ventilation from a duct to outside from within the compartment.

It is now not acceptable and the combustion air should come from outside the compartment. So if an open flue WAU is replaced and it has a neat vent inside the cupboard, whether appropriately sized or not this is not considered safe.

This is not to be confused with the compartment and return air ventilation.

I do not think they can make you alter the combustion air ventilation unless you change the unit, because it is existing and I assume it met standards in place at the time.

However, if you desire the unit to be maintained by BG you have to get it in a position where they deem it suitable to take on.

There is a type of combustion air intake where it is drawn into the return air negative pressure side of the heater - BG often miss this and it is approved by J&S.

 

[muggles]

Maybe so but he's still missed vital points whilst doing his safety checks. IMHO as a bare minimum the four basic areas to look at for a safety check are Flue, Ventilation, Safety Controls and Gas Rate, and I'm sure a lot of the guys on here would agree with me on that.

Ventilation through a floor is not allowed unless it is properly ducted to a vent on the outside wall. There should be vents at both the top and the bottom of the cupboard, to provide a good circulation of combustion air and also to provide air for cooling purposes. As it's ventilating into a room, there should be 10cm² per KW of total net heat input at high level and 20cm² per KW at low level. The two vents should have as great a distance between them as is practicable. The room in which the cupboard is situated should have 5cm² of ventilation direct to outside air for every KW of net heat input over 7kw.

I'd normally say Homecare, or anything to do with British Gas, is not worth the money they charge, but it seems that they've picked up valid points here.

It shouldn't actually cost you anything beyond the materials - if you're reasonably handy you can sort the ventilation requirements out yourself, just make sure you purchase compliant vents - the holes should be large enough to pass a 5mm diameter ball but small enough not to allow the passage of a 10mm ball. The vent in the outside wall must be sealed to the cavity, IE it should pass all the way through with no breaks, you cannot simply cut a hole and fit a grille on the inner skin and do the same on the outer skin, there must be a duct connecting them.


this post has a very in depth description of what you need, but i would comment on the point of underfloor vent needing to be ducted to outside, IF this is a requirement of WAU then i stand corrected, although i dont think it is, a vent for an open flued appliance can be vented to underfloor, if it is verified that there is sufficient ventilation to outside, and should only require to be ducted if there is a possibility of RADON gas permeating through the ground and being drawn into the appliance and effecting combustion. i await being shot down (again )
Hope this helps

Took me a while to find your response there Kirk...never mind. I've always been under the impression that it's just not allowed, but maybe I was taught that because I operate in the south west where radon gas issues are much more prevelant, or maybe I've just remembered it slightly incorrectly.

Having said that, there is a slight 'grey area' argument in that this particular installation is technically a compartment installation, and the rules for that state that the cooling and combustion air must come from the same source. Whilst this generally refers to the prevention of cross-ventilation, in that you cannot have one vent going straight to outside air and another going into a room, it *could* be argued that running one vent to the floor and another to a room may be taking the air from different sources. In any case a correctly-sized vent to outside would need to be installed in order to comply with the requirements.

I'll hold fire and wait to be shot myself...

EDIT: Incidentally what I'm saying here is taken from my knowledge of general rules for open-flued appliances...my experience of WAUs is very limited, and so I'm not aware of any exemptions that may exist for these particular appliances. In response to Simond's comment, where provided ventilation is less than 90% of the requirement for the appliance, it is an At Risk installation and the fault should be remedied. In any case, if the property is to be rented out, it would be advisable for the landlord to bring all installations up to current standards where reasonably practicable.

 

[asthpsw]

Thanks for all the reply's thats one thing the guy did say when he did the service/Safety Cert ........................that there are different rules for WAU than "wet" units. I think that has been applied above. But anyway it looks like best practice so I will be doing as required by BG. Thats one thing BG did say "That I didn't have to do it but BG like you to have it if they are going to maintain the unit".

 

[nickso]

But anyway it looks like best practice so I will be doing as required by BG. Thats one thing BG did say "That I didn't have to do it but BG like you to have it if they are going to maintain the unit".

thats a poor effort by the BG guy then.

he should know an at risk appliance is an automatic fail for a contract. he isnt even supposed to service/inspect the appliance if the flue or vent fail.

if he has taken that on and not left it AR he is in trouble if found out. if he has taken it on and left it AR then he is in a little less trouble.

what paperwork did he leave you?