alarm call for all

[JohnD]

aggressive and argumentative.

like this, you mean.

As know it all, clever dick above knows nothing about the workings of and the grading systems used in the alarm industry, I'll keep quiet and let him feed you useless and pointless information.

or this

I thought you were an experienced alarm engineer, perhaps I was wrong.

It's true that I will sometimes pick up on an unsubstantiated allegation and try to find out if there is truth behind it. Especially when it turns out there is no evidence.

For some reason unsubstantiated allegations are not uncommon on the Alarms forum.

 

[tataylor1]

...

I think that was most of your questions... Time for a little lie-down!

...

thanks a lot for that good practical advice. i am looking into the names you mentioned as comparisons for the texecom brand, honeywell and bosch stand out.

is there a height or location requirement for the bellbox for any reason? It needs to be out of reach but not so inaccessible as to make maintenance daft? Or is it a fit and forget box anyway?

Thanks eightytwo

 

[tataylor1]

not wishing to instigate an argument but just on the home insurance element, the best practice is to

A: not inform them of it as it is a DIY (Grade 1?) install and, well, in layman's terms wont be taken seriously enough? Is there any process of getting this signed off or something, similar to leccy work to boost the grade? Does the grade matter for the novice? In the event of a break in, if i havent informed the insurer that I have an alarm then they cannot see it as an alarm, and surely the alarm system, working or not, is just a box with lights and sound that I like to have in my house - not a security feature. Something to dance to when I'm coming in late for example.

Or B: to inform them, get it put on record as what was installed and then to ensure it is always active when required, bearing in mind the insurers could say no compensation for a break in as the alarm wasn't set? With this scenario does the choice of my alarm come into play? ie if i go budget can the insurers say I failed to provide adequate protection or similar?

i will look up the legal side of this and post back anything useful

 

[JohnD]

your insurers will have a booklet called "minimum standards for home security" and they may also have an endorsement on your policy saying what is needed in your particular home, if different. It might not mention an alarm, in which case you are under no obligation to have one.

Look at their policy and see what it says about alarms. Then you will have an idea of their approach. If you have lost the papers it will probably be on their website, it's quite usual.

Then, give them a call, say you are thinking about fitting a simple DIY alarm, and will it make any difference? Most likely they will ask if it is an approved commercial one with a maintenance contract, if not, they will probably say it makes no difference. They might possibly offer to give you a discount which will be conditional on it always being set when the house is unoccupied - I would try to avoid that, as the one day you forget to set it...

It will be really interesting if they say that they will refuse to pay out if you fit an alarm without telling them first. I reckon that's a load of *******s but I will send you five pounds if you can provide evidence that they do.

 

[dpt]

For some reason unsubstantiated allegations are not uncommon on the Alarms forum.

Neither is boundless arrogance it would seem.

I see you have not grasped the difference between fanciful speculation and guesswork, and practical experience.

Are you willing to estimate the probability that interference, whether from hoovers, electric drills, or baby monitors, will block the alarm signal from a sensor at the exact fraction of a second that a burglar breaks into your house?

Maybe you should invest in a system and try it out. You can often find a used one on ebay.

You are obviously unwilling to let your fantasies be influenced by anybody else's experience. Burglars apart, you will get an indication of interference affecting reliability by observing how frequently, if at all, a signal is missed in ordinary daily activity, for example if opening the front door fails to start a countdown, or a chime fails to occur. There are other people with a wider experience of these simple DIY systems than me, but my own experience is a failure rate of zero in about five thousand, using three such installations, but it will be interesting to hear yours, when you have some.

Your very first reply to me.

 

[JohnD]

it was not a reply to you, but to a person who habitually engages in unsubstantiated speculation. Note the reference to his "hoovers" idea.


for some reason we have a few people who habitually come onto DIY alarm threads, bombarding them with dark tales of dread, but with no facts and figures to substantiate their claims, and refusing to provide even an estimate that could be looked at and discussed. This happens so frequently that I have lost patience with it.

I'm sorry if you thought I meant you.

 

[mdf290]

tataylor1

I'm sorry you have had all this heaped on you.

As you can see, there are some people who really don't like DIY alarms and are not much help to you.

I have spent little time here, what I have seen is you and mdf aggressively posting, contradicting almost everything advised by professionals.

Maybe it's you who doesn't like professionals because you can't make the grade?

Absolutely nothing against professionals....

look on all the other threads on the professional Grade 2 stuff and you wont find me posting on them.

What I am against is the scaremongering done by Bernard in Particular.

not only does he seem to think a Yale alarm cannot possibly work and give some kind of security but now he is telling people that if they fit an alarm they may invalidate their insurance.

What kind of bullshit is that.

Bernard seems to have a one man crusade to stop people fitting DIY burglar alarms. One is tempted to ask whether he is actually a burglar!!



Regarding alarms and telling your insurance company THIS is the correct position.

In certain cases dependent on where you live and the value of your policy your insurance company may INSIST that you fit an alarm.

The alarm will have to be a grade 2 or higher dependent on their risk assessment and fitted by a recognised alarm installer with NSI or SIA accreditation. The system will have to be serviced as per regulations. Once a year for bells only or twice a year for a monitored system.

If the Insurance company do not explicitly demand you have an alarm fitted you may have one fitted in return for a reduction in your premium.
The rules for the first instance apply re professional fitting and servicing.

However for the reduction in the premium the alarm company may stipulate certain conditions like it being set when the property is empty.

Grade2 systems have a log which can determine when checked whether an alarm was actually set or not at the time of the burglary and whether it activated.

This information will form the basis of whether the claim is settled by the insurance company or refused or indeed whether the alarm company will be claimed against if the alarm was shown to be set but did not activate.

The third scenario is having an alarm fitted DIY or rofessionally but NOT telling your insurance company.
The downside is you will not be able to get a reduction in your premium.
The upside is that if you forget to set the alarm or it fails to work your insurance will still pay out as its installation is not a part of the insurance contract.

Bernard is talking piffle when he suggests having an alarm you have not told your insurance company about could invalidate a claim.

As long as you establish the correct contract with your insurer you can do what you please.

Incidentally you CAN get a premium reduction if you fit a DIY alarm if you ask for one and your insurers agree.
I would not reccommend it though as you would not be able to prove to an insurer that the alarm was working or set at the time of the burglary.
If you do get a premium reduction ensure the basis you have agreed is that one is fitted and that it is not tied into any performance criteria.

Just the fact it is alarmed and has a bell box can be sufficient for the insurance company.

 

[bernardgreen]

not only does he seem to think a Yale alarm cannot possibly work

I have not said that a Yale alarm cannot possibly work. What I have said is that all wireless linked alarm systems can be compromised by transmissions from legal and compliant equipment on the same channel. They can also be dis-credited ( repeat false alarms ) or dis-abled by non compliant transmissions on the radio channel. ( compliant with the regulations applicable to equipment using a licence exempt radio channel )

The use of one way comms means the compromised system cannot recover from being compromised. ( loss of a packet ( message ) is not detected and the lost packet is not repeated.

Bernard is talking piffle when he suggests having an alarm you have not told your insurance company about could invalidate a claim.

You make a claim for a loss which you claim was a burglary. The loss adjuster sees an alarm and asks for the log to be made available to prove there was an intrusion. But the alarm wasn't set or failed to detect the instrusion. This lack of "proof" of an intrusion opens up the possibility that the loss adjuster may consider there was no instrusion, that the lost items were sold for cash and the claim is fraudulent.

I would not reccommend it though as you would not be able to prove to an insurer that the alarm was working or set at the time of the burglary.

Which partly supports what I am saying.

 

[alan333]

Some findings from a guy who has (almost) done what you are trying to. ie diy fit a reasonably well specced alarm. I say almost cos I only changed the panel and keypad, fitted an exterior siren/strobe, and I'm currently replacing sensors to pet-friendly versions. So, really, the only bit I didn't do was the wiring? Bear in mind I'm just a competent diyer and these are just my findings.

Alarms seem to come in many guises. Some are hard-wired, some wireless, and some you can "mix n match". Hard-wired seem the most respected. Mix n match might be good if you want cover for a shed but don't want to run the cables.

You can have one which only activates your own siren & strobe, or one which will call and/or text a list of numbers along with sounding your siren & strobe, or one which will alert an alarm receiver centre (ARC) like ADT (for a monthly fee). Or any combination of these.

Some have in-built diallers, but are maybe only meant for dialling ARC's? So "in-built" might not be any good if you want it to phone you. As far as I know you can get it to call your mobile, but then if you answer does it hang up, or have you just incurred a 3hr call from your landline to your mobile? Maybe a texter would be better? Some (maybe all?) texters work from a SIM card like your mobile. So you need to make sure it has reception, that it has credit, and that the credit doesn't "run out" if you've not used it for a while. Maybe the "add-on" diallers/texters are better, I know not.

Some seem to have the ability to be controlled remotely. So maybe you could set it from your work pc?

Most have a "log" so you can see who set/unset it, what zone triggered an alarm, what time etc.

Most have battery back-up in case of power failure, or a burglar cutting the power.

You can make all the things "tamperproof". So if anyone cuts a wire, or smashes your control panel, or gets as far as taking the lid off a sensor, or prises the siren off the wall, the siren can still sound.

Some have a "pre-fitted" number of zones, and some are "expandable" so that you could add more zones later, after you've built your extension.

Some (maybe all?) the expandable ones require an "add-on" to expand them.

Judging by my model, most things are changeable via settings. Like how long/if the siren will sound, whether it beeps when you set it, whether it chimes every time a particular zone/zones are opened, whether to disable the upstairs sensor when you're in bed, whether your cleaner gets her own code so she can't mess about with the settings, whether it activates the siren at night or just sounds internally, whether you want it to automatically set at specific times. The list is endless.

Some hints...

Fit the control panel somewhere that is covered by a sensor.
If you have a motion sensor covering your front door make sure a large letter coming thru the letterbox won't set it off.
Consider pet-friendly sensors. Even a rodent can set your alarm off in theory.
Consider keyfobs, great for coming in with shopping bags. Not so great if the burglar knows your fob is on your keyring in the door lock.

Hope these ramblings help. If I think of any more I'll add them later.

ps my alarm is a Honeywell Galaxy 2-12 with MK7 keyprox keypad.
pps just reading that back - I think I'll need to start a few threads myself with some of the things I've put a question mark against lol

 

[mdf290]

You make a claim for a loss which you claim was a burglary. The loss adjuster sees an alarm and asks for the log to be made available to prove there was an intrusion. But the alarm wasn't set or failed to detect the instrusion. This lack of "proof" of an intrusion opens up the possibility that the loss adjuster may consider there was no instrusion, that the lost items were sold for cash and the claim is fraudulent.

Oh more nonsense.
If the alarm IS NOT A PART OF THE CONTRACT then there is no obligation that it even works let alone keeps a log.
A log would ONLY be of interest if the system was secure from the homeowners access by means of an engineer code. In that case we would not be talking about a DIY fitted system would we?

Many alarms don't keep a log and even if they did unless that log is protected by an engineer code to stop the homeowners clearing it then its data is irrelevant anyway. Especially if the time and date are not correct.
If it's not part of the contract then it is basically nothing at all to do with the insurance company.

Are you therefore suggesting CCTV if fitted has to work otherwise you can't prove you were burgled??


So will people buying houses with already installed alarms that are no longer functioning now not get paid out even when they rightly tell the insurers that the property isn't alarmed?

You have dug yourself into a hole here Bernard.

 

[JohnD]

I'll open up my £5 offer if it helps.

If Bernard can provide evidence of an insurance company successfully turning down a claim in an ordinary, domestic UK house, on the grounds that the householder fitted a DIY alarm and didn't tell them, I'll send him £5.

Until then I'll dismiss it as unsubstantiated nonsense.

This offer expires 31st May.

 

[dpt]

it was not a reply to you, but to a person who habitually engages in unsubstantiated speculation. Note the reference to his "hoovers" idea.


for some reason we have a few people who habitually come onto DIY alarm threads, bombarding them with dark tales of dread, but with no facts and figures to substantiate their claims, and refusing to provide even an estimate that could be looked at and discussed. This happens so frequently that I have lost patience with it.

I'm sorry if you thought I meant you.

I'm sorry but I read sound advice from a person who obviously knows what he is talking about when it comes to RFI. A very knowledgeable man from the little I've read so far.

 

[mdf290]

I'm sorry but I read sound advice from a person who obviously knows what he is talking about when it comes to RFI. A very knowledgeable man from the little I've read so far.

He does know a lot and you will know the limitations of the alarms but in practice the concerns don't amount to much when faced with what solutions people actually choose for themselves when faced with budget constraints and the reality of the threats when looked at in a statistical manner.
over 3000 alarms and only ONE has had assumed jamming issues.

In respect of the other 2999 plus , yes they are vunerable to jamming but jamming sets off the alarm so will only attract attention.
I have had ZERO reports or repeated jamming to the point where a person has disabled their detection or switched off their alarm.

Of course people fitting DIY priced wireless alarms do not actually have any other alternative. Wired DIY alarms no longer exists other than cheap equipment from Alarm wholesalers but if it aint on a shelf in B&Q or Homebase most people will never even look at it.

To constantly belittle those systems on a DIY site is pointless as the people on DIY sites have already decided their budget will not stretch to a Pro system. In that case it is better to ensure they do the best they can with what they have rather than scare people off the idea of an alarm altogether which has far more serious consequences for security than a will it/wont it get jammed scenario.

 

[dpt]

In respect of the other 2999 plus , yes they are vunerable to jamming but jamming sets off the alarm so will only attract attention.
I have had ZERO reports or repeated jamming to the point where a person has disabled their detection or switched off their alarm.

"When activated, communications between everything wireless within its radius of influence will be innocuously prohibited. The wireless security system simply does not know anything has happened. There is just dead silence from all sensors within range. An intruder can simply walk right through a wireless security system as if it were not there. He will not even be slowed down. Secret codes and secret frequencies are irrelevant. "

http://www.jrmagnetics.com/security/defeatwireless/defeatwireless.php

It doesn't matter what budget constrains people have made if they realise their money would be best spent on other areas of security.

 

[JohnD]

Remembering that if the house is close enough to a transmitter for the signals to be blocked, the front door will not set the entry-countdown bleeping, and any doors set to chime no longer will; and the keypad or fobs will not get a reaction from the panel. A householder who is familiar with his system will notice something is amiss.

The wireless security system simply does not know anything has happened.

Do you mean the jamming detector will not notice the jamming signal?

Have you ever known someone use such a device to help them burgle an ordinary domestic house?

Have you evidence of a UK burglar being charged for "going equipped" with such a device?