Yes. That's why I think there should be a statement on the Amazon sales page telling buyers that by importing these items into the EEA they are accepting responsibility for those items' conformity to all applicable EU Directives.
Amazon selling dangerous lighting
- Thread starter studentspark
- Start date
Sponsored Links
So, if I were to allow heroin dealers to use my front room to promote their wares, would that be alright as long as I only took a percentage of their profits, and didn't touch the drugs?
I think you might well be "alright" if you could convince authorities/court that you genuinely had no idea that your front room was being used for illegal purposes - but quite how you would convince them of that if you were "taking a percentage of profits", I'm not so sure.
As for the context we are discussing, I'm not sure that an ordinary person could be expected (by a court or anyone else) to have the technical knowledge/skills to enable them to know that they were importing a product whose import was illegal for technical reasons, could they?
Kind Regards, John
If they are not able to tell if a product is legal or not, should they really be buying it?
Sponsored Links
I would say that that would be reasonable enough, but do you think that many people would take any notice of it? ... and, as I've just written, if they proceeded with the purchase/import despite such a statement/warning, do you think a court would regard it as reasonable to expect an 'ordinary person' to be able to determine, before even seeing the product, whether or not the product "complied with all applicable EU Directives"?
Kind Regards, John
Ideally not, but I doubt whether, given the vast number of rules, regulations and laws which surround us, the average person has the ability to tell whether hardly any product they buy "is legal or not", even if they buy it in Harrods.
Kind Regards, John
Reasonable or not, it is a criminal offence in many circumstances to import an item that does not comply with all applicable EU Directives (and any additional National legislation).
I don't know why, but I think I probably have a bit more faith in the UK judicial system than you do. I would like to think that a UK court would not feel inclined to convict someone of a criminal offence which "no reasonable man in the street" would have any reason to know that they had committed - but maybe that's wishful thinking.
Furthermore, I would regard myself as having a bit more knowledge about electrical products than 'the average man in the street', but I have absolutely no confidence in my ability to determine whether a product I have bought 'complies with all applicable EU Directives', particularly before I've even seen the product (and by the time I'd seen it, the crime would have been committed, if it does not comply with all those Directives).
Kind Regards, John
I agree that there is very little chance of prosecution, let alone conviction, but most people like to feel they are complying with the law.
That's all true, but it's not really what I was saying. I was saying that if a prosecution were brought, I would hope that a 'just Court' would not convict them for committing a crime that they could not reasonably be expected to have known they were committing. Whether all courts are 'just' is perhaps a different matter.
Kind Regards, John
- Joined
- 27 Jan 2008
- Messages
- 23,748
- Reaction score
- 2,679
- Location
- Llanfair Caereinion, Nr Welshpool
- Country
I have just read today's free paper. Clearly loads of adverts that's what pays for the paper. One from local DIY store who are selling 400W PIR flood lamps. Nothing wrong in selling them, however unless planning permission is applied for can't use them outside as over the 150W limit.
The same applies to Amateur radio equipment nothing to stop you buying or selling it, but to use it you need a licence. Same of course with simple motor car you can buy and sell without a licence but not use it. It seems the latest is drones, seems status matters here if your a professional using them as part of your job licence is required, but as yet not for DIY.
I am sure one can expand on the list. There are some items which have restrictions on buying and selling for example guns and drugs. And there are some requirements likely portable equipment being supplied with a 13A plug.
However a ceiling lamp is not portable equipment, so it is up to the installer to assess if suitable. Ask the question is this equipment Class II or is this double insulated as to CE that is no help as it does not really matter if it meets EU safety, health or environmental requirements what matters is can it be used in a set of circumstances which require some one who is deemed to be professionally skilled in electrics not buying and selling.
Some firms are good. I will take my hat off to Maplin staff they seem willing to find out what there products will and will not do. But walk into PC World and their staff simply have no idea. OK maybe a little unfair I am sure there are exceptions. But never the less if I know I want an HP xyz and I am sure that's exactly what I want then PC world is great. But if I am unsure and I need advice then it's Maplin every time.
Now if one has bought an item from Amazon which when it arrives you find does not fit the description given and Amazon refuse to take it back then fair enough complain and shout it from the roof tops.
However I have just sent for a STC 1000 electronic temperature controller, I knew before I sent for it that it will arrive without a supply lead, plug, box and that I will need to fit the unit into a box and wire it up. There is really know way I can claim I didn't know it was not sold ready for use. If we try to stop people like Amazon selling the components where will we buy them from? The equipment is not dangerous it is the way people try to use it which is dangerous.
The same applies to Amateur radio equipment nothing to stop you buying or selling it, but to use it you need a licence. Same of course with simple motor car you can buy and sell without a licence but not use it. It seems the latest is drones, seems status matters here if your a professional using them as part of your job licence is required, but as yet not for DIY.
I am sure one can expand on the list. There are some items which have restrictions on buying and selling for example guns and drugs. And there are some requirements likely portable equipment being supplied with a 13A plug.
However a ceiling lamp is not portable equipment, so it is up to the installer to assess if suitable. Ask the question is this equipment Class II or is this double insulated as to CE that is no help as it does not really matter if it meets EU safety, health or environmental requirements what matters is can it be used in a set of circumstances which require some one who is deemed to be professionally skilled in electrics not buying and selling.
Some firms are good. I will take my hat off to Maplin staff they seem willing to find out what there products will and will not do. But walk into PC World and their staff simply have no idea. OK maybe a little unfair I am sure there are exceptions. But never the less if I know I want an HP xyz and I am sure that's exactly what I want then PC world is great. But if I am unsure and I need advice then it's Maplin every time.
Now if one has bought an item from Amazon which when it arrives you find does not fit the description given and Amazon refuse to take it back then fair enough complain and shout it from the roof tops.
However I have just sent for a STC 1000 electronic temperature controller, I knew before I sent for it that it will arrive without a supply lead, plug, box and that I will need to fit the unit into a box and wire it up. There is really know way I can claim I didn't know it was not sold ready for use. If we try to stop people like Amazon selling the components where will we buy them from? The equipment is not dangerous it is the way people try to use it which is dangerous.
But you're not going into Amazon or eBay's premises and buying something drectly from them. It's a whole different arrangement.
What if you responded to a classified ad in a newspaper or monthly journal, and then purchased an item from the advertiser? Would you hold the publisher of the newspaper responsible if the item you purchased turned out to be dangerous, faulty, not to some standard, counterfeit or whatever?
I would like to think so too, but unfortunately it happens all the time with "absolute" offenses. Take driving without insurance as a good example: You could arrange cover with an insurer and have absolutely no reason to believe that you're not covered, then it transpires later that the insurer did not commence the policy and you end up stuck with a driving-uninsured conviction, even though no reasonable person could possibly believe that it was your fault or that you hadn't taken all reasonable steps to comply with the law.
Indeed - The laws in some cases are undoubtedly so complex that even those dealing with them all the time probably have difficulty assessing the legality sometimes. And to be blunt, if you start telling people about making sure something complies with EU Directive such-and-such I think most people are so fed up with hearing about EU Directives that they really couldn't care less whether it complies or not. You'd be much better off trying to explain why something might be dangerous, not work as intended etc
Not without being compelled to, I agree.
Which is why there should be legislation to compel them.
And that would be a problem, why, exactly?
Reputable sellers, based in jurisdictions with proper consumer protection laws, a physical presence which can be sanctioned, selling products which are not counterfeit and/or dangerous and/or have fake approval marks etc will have no problems. In fact they might even be pleased that ne'er-do-well competitors are being hampered.
TBH, I cannot think of anybody who would be harmed if it was made harder, or risky, for the likes of Amazon to act just like a retailer and hide behind the legal construct of "only" being the provider, for profit, of every single bit of infrastructure the real seller uses. That is, IMO, as immoral and as necessary of being stopped as is their scandalous tax
Possibly.
Your argument seems to be that we have to let supposedly trustworthy companies make their money from acting just like the retailers of dangerous products but not have any responsibilities regarding product safety because if we don't then the real businesses responsible for the products will sell them directly.
That would be a problem, would it?
Wrong.
And those of you who are throwing up more and more specious "what about the makers of the cardboard boxes?" reasons to object should be ashamed.
There is no moral imperative to allow unfettered sales of anything.
There is one to try and prevent the sales of dangerous etc items.
Last edited:
And as such they have moral responsibilities which they ignore, and therefore they need to be compelled to behave morally responsibly.
Those are not the same.
(BTW - you forgot the construction companies who made the roads that the trucks taking the goods to port use. And the makers of the trucks.)
You should be ashamed to be using arguments like that, and the fact that you are not says a great deal about your moral standards, none of it good.
DIYnot Local
Staff member
If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.
Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.
Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local
Sponsored Links
