American terrorism ?

[Odds]

Have you forgotten what David Cameron said IT?

EU should extend further into former Soviet Union, says David Cameron

Speaking in Kazakhstan, British PM says European Union should stretch from the Atlantic to the Urals

www.theguardian.com

From the article: "Russia is sensitive about Ukrainian membership of the EU. Ukraine houses the Russian Black Sea naval fleet at Sevastopol, which was in Russia until the Crimean Peninsula was gifted to Ukraine by Nikita Kruschev in the 1950s."

Although the article is 9 years old it's anothr timely reminder why Russia felt pressured into responding to American infleunce in the region.

 

[JP_]

So when ISIS were destroying oilfields in Iraq it was, what; a bit of a lark?

No, it was sabotage.

For those unsure:

sabotage - deliberately destroy, damage, or obstruct (something), especially for political or military advantage.
terrorism - the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Blowing a bridge up to inconvenience people, when nobody is nearby is not terrorism. Blowing up a bridge that people are crossing, killing people, is.

Unless the undersea pipelines were known popular Scuba diving spots, then this was sabotage, nor terrorism.

 

[ajohn]

They say it's due to NATO expansion in the east: who's right?

Essentially it is and has been expansions before. Another way of looking at it is that the US wants that expansion Russia doesn't. Stretched somewhat it's a bit like the cuban missile crisis. Russia wants US warheads to go home. Then comes the NATO factor.

The same applies to the EU really. They want expansion. I'm not so sure Russia is very bothered about that but it's likely to interfere with their export market. Not just oil and gas.

The other aspect with Ukraine is the Minsk agreement and what was agreed in that. Also increasing support for Russia in it going east. Some of that will have been wrecked now. That fact was well reported widely from reliable sources before things fired up. Going west there is increasing support for the west.

What I will call Ukrainianisation has it's interesting feature in terms of language used as well. No more Russian when some use it. A simple way of putting it.

Georgia mentioned. Their president was interviewed. Her view was Zelensky needs to think about what he is doing to his country. Another when Russians started going there - very careful about who they let in.

None of this excuses Russia, They are just facts.

 

[Odds]

No, it was sabotage.

For those unsure:

sabotage - deliberately destroy, damage, or obstruct (something), especially for political or military advantage.
terrorism - the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.

Blowing a bridge up to inconvenience people, when nobody is nearby is not terrorism. Blowing up a bridge that people are crossing, killing people, is.

Unless the undersea pipelines were known popular Scuba diving spots, then this was sabotage, nor terrorism.

Sophistry.

 

[JP_]

Besides, it wasn't long ago we said we would stop buying Russian gas, and criticised those that were going to carry on. Russians have helped some people make that decision by destroying the pipeline. That is not terrorism, that's Collaboration!

 

[JP_]

Sophistry.

Really? Why?
We can't just call everything terrorism. Not unless we are looking for more excuses to start a major war.

 

[Odds]

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

 

[JP_]

One man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

Well, of course.

Dad's Army were trained to be terrorists. That bit was left out of the comedy series!

although, maybe actually guerrillas, rather than terrorists. But they certainly learned many skills we associate with terrorism, such as roadside bombs, but if only attacking German military, that is guerrillaism...

 

[Odds]

Well, of course.

Dad's Army were trained to be terrorists. That bit was left out of the comedy series!

We called them Home Guard.
Whose side are you on?

 

[JP_]

We called them Home Guard.
Whose side are you on?

The same side. We also called them Dad's Army! Watched a documentary years ago, as opposed to just the comedy series, they learned how to form small groups that could cause as much havoc as possible to the Germans if they invaded, which included many things that some people call terrorism today. As you said, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

 

[Odds]

Besides, it wasn't long ago we said we would stop buying Russian gas, and criticised those that were going to carry on. Russians have helped some people make that decision by destroying the pipeline. That is not terrorism, that's Collaboration!

Back on topic: this is only speculation at the moment. It's likely to be Russian sabotage but all avenues of explanation must be examined before jumping to a conclusion about American terrorism.

 

[Justin Passing]

The pipes weren't bombed as terrorism or freedom fighting. Just a tactical maneuver someone thought was to their advantage.
It doesn't actually change much right now, and eventually they could be repaired.

I would have thought that if it were US, the Russkies would have some sort of evidence.
I suspect the Russians did it after seeing Biden's assertion that the US could put one of them out of action.
WHy would the US bomb something the Russians had said they "couldn't repair because of western sanctions" anyway..?


Seems a bit daft if someone did it for show.
US and Russia will know who did it, and nobody who matters much is sitting in judgement over those two.

 

[ajohn]

Mention of 100kg of explosive used mentioned on AlJ. I assume monitoring for tremors etc showed it up so the 100 corresponds with that. Rather short report. Maybe more will be announced.

The question of why would Russia damage it's own pipes also cropped up.

Bit more - can't go near the leaks until all the gas has escaped. Then sea water gets in and the pipes are no good - according to a reporter.

So stream 1 can't be turned on again if this is correct, Net effect gas prices increase as that option has gone. 20% mentioned, initially.

 

[ellal]

As you said, one man's terrorist is another's freedom fighter.

For many years Israel was ruled by 'terrorists' as defined by Britain...

Of course now if you mention such historical facts it's classed as anti-semitism!

 

[Deleted member 174758]

Who is America to dictate to any other country policy to provide their population with affordable means to heat their homes /cook their food and run their industries . Germany knew the risks of decades of cheap fuel but america didnt like it that russia and germany had good trade agreements

That shows a complete lack of understanding about the politics of the period and the very real (perceived) threat at the time of a Soviet invasion of the west. If you lived in the UK at the time it was a lot less of a threat than if you lived within 50km or so of the East German border, and were facing the prospect of nukes being deployed within 72 hours of the Soviet assault commencing (so basically a VERY tense period). So it was absolutely nothing to do with America dictating anything (in fact concerns were voiced by NATO as well as the UK and other European NATO members, such as the Dutch). If you weren't being so anti-American you might just possibly understand that

The issue was always about the suspicion, quite correctly as it turned out in the light of recent events, that Russia would one day use Germany's dependence on its' gas supplies as a means to blackmail Germany and the rest of Europe into silence and non-action. Even the Germans have now come to realise what a mistake Ostpolitik was.

I was living in the Netherlands at the time the first gas pipeline was being mooted and I well recall concerns about Russia' behaviour being raised in both the Dutch and Belgian press, as well as by politicians both on the right and the left of the political spectrum over there. This had nothing to do with what the USA thought (in fact some of the politicians raising their voices were also vocal against American influence)

So your inferences couldn't be more wrong if you tried