Bathroom downlights and LED cabinet installed. Electrician not notified?

[MrDDIY]

Hi folks, I have a query regarding notifiable works in the bathroom. Back in April, I had a NAPIT registered electrician in to replace a bulkhead light with downlights and install a bathroom LED cabinet. Due to the low ceiling, one of the downlights is within touching distance when in the bath (around 30cm above the showerhead). He also had to bring a feed in from the lights to the cabinet as there was no power there before. The cabinet is within a zone 2 area as it is within 600mm of the area above the bath.

At the time of fitting, I did ask whether I needed any certification and he said no as it was only adding on to an existing circuit. I didn't receive any certificates and to my knowledge, nothing has been notified to building control. I plan to call him to settle this amicably and get him to certify and notify.

My questions are:
1) What documents should he have provided me with?
2) What should he have done regarding notifiying building control?
3) How do I verify that he has done his bit with regards to notifying control?

 

[ericmark]

He on line tells NAPIT they in turn tell the LABC and send you a compliance certificate. He gives you the minor works certificate direct to you. If the work does not require notifying and rules change Wales, Scotland and England so depends where you live, then he only has to supply a minor works certificate.

The minor works certificate is required by the regulations, but the regulations are not law, I would have thought since a scheme member with NAPIT he would have to issue a minor works to remain a scheme member, but not sure about this.

If not a scheme member then should notify the LABC before he starts the job, unless the work is classed as emergency work, it is permitted for me to do work in the bathroom or kitchen in Wales to do some thing like replace a broken socket, then tell the LABC after the event, but not fit a bathroom heated mirror where one did not exist.

Personally I think it has all gone OTT, and would not worry about the paper trail, however the paper trail does ensure it is tested. I had a door bell supplied with mains power for my mother by the county council social services, it was battery powered but the batteries keep going flat, the firm they got could not find a 12 volt DC power supply that connected directly to the mains, so they fitted a socket and a wallwart type power supply, it was not labelled door bell only, so it should have been a RCD protected socket, at that time had they fitted a label they could have got away with out RCD protection under BS7671:2008, I tested the socket with an RCD tester and it did not trip, so I asked the social services for a copy of the minor works, I never got it.

So if the county council flaunt the rules, then one has to expect others to follow. It was Flintshire CC by the way. And it would have been the same authority I would have needed to report lack of paperwork to, so it would seem electricians follow the example set by the country council.

 

[MrDDIY]

Reading up on the rules, the work definitely needed notifying IMO. If not for the downlights that are 60cm away from the showerhead, then the heated mirror for sure as that is within 20cm of the space above the bath. I'm slightly more concerned as the house is rented from a housing association so I want to ensure everything is above board. I dont want them turning around and asking me for the paperwork in a few years and would rather sort it out now.

 

[markyd1]

Did you get permission from the housing association to have electrical work carried out, because you should have done first

 

[ericmark]

Never been involved with a housing association, however all the rules and regulations refer to owner, only with the new landlord laws does it say the tenant must be given copies, and even then the paperwork goes to owner first then to tenant.

We were always told reports go direct to owner or person ordering the work, I would assume there have been problems in the past giving a tenant paperwork, having said that many industrial units are owned by local authority and the tenant moves in to bare walls and an electrical supply meter only and all wiring is done by tenant.

I know on selling my mothers house I had problems with missing paperwork simply could not find it, so I applied to the council for a duplicate completion certificate, I thought the whole idea was the council held copies of these to show work had been registered, however was told it would take 4 months and no limit to cost, I would need to pay council the time taken for them to find it. So it was near enough impossible to get a replacement, it would need a death before anyone would hunt for it, I found original.

However there was no tie between the completion certificate and the installation certificate, so I could write out a new installation certificate saying I had rewired whole house if I wanted, I had three installation certificates, two completion certificates and a completion certificate to cover the house electrics and reading them it was impossible to work out which covered any of the work done. If the installation certificate had said ring final 23 points then if 25 points one could say some one has fitted an extra 2 points where is the minor works to cover them, however that was not the case, it does not say how many points.

This house I was given the installation certificate which seemed to cover the whole house, but then found it only covered the flat under the main house. And only realised that when I turned off all the power and nothing in main house stopped working. I then found a fuse box hidden in ceiling.

You are intended to produce the certificates before work starts so the electrician can see what has already been installed, clearly two wrongs do not make a right, but if the electrician has to guess and then try to confirm his guess is correct, I can see why he would not want to write down some thing which he was unsure of to start with, we have a number of methods to work out what we have, including enquiry, and that enquiry should be in writing, all heath and safety stuff is in writing, and there should be cross reference between the documents.

So let him without sin cast the first stone. Yes he should have issued paperwork, but you should have also given him paperwork. And electrics is not the only thing, I had a new front door fitted, I did not expect to be asked for the certificates for that, seems down to percent of the door which is glazed, and lucky I was just within the limits.

All down to making money, every certificate costs, be it money paid to NAPIT or Fensa or gas safe, it is a money generating process so some one can sit in their ivory tower raking it in. It was the guilds, then the unions, now it is the scheme providers.

 

[MrDDIY]

Update on this: Turns out he wasn't NAPIT registered at the time but now is (confirmed with NAPIT). He has agreed to come out and 'test and sign off' on the work, albeit 8 months later. On the last call, he was still adamant that no Part P notification is required and it only needs a MWC despite the supply for the cabinet (spurred from lights and now sealed behind cabinet) being in a zone 2 location, and I'm still adamant that this isn't sufficient as this doesn't notify building control of his work.

My question is: What can he provide me with now that will satisfy building control requirements? Is a test certificate sufficient? Or would he have to log it as a new job?

 

[ericmark]

He I would have hoped has already supplied you with a minor works certificate, he may need to issue a new one with a date after he became a scheme member. But as I said there was little tie between certificates and really just a money making exercise so as long as you get a compliance or completion no worries.

 

[flameport]

What can he provide me with now

Not much. Possibly a minor works certificate with details of the work and test results.

Building regulations notifications can't be done 8 months after the fact, and schemes such as NAPIT don't allow notifying work that was done when the person wasn't a member.

 

[EFLImpudence]

He has agreed to come out and 'test and sign off' on the work, albeit 8 months later. On the last call, he was still adamant that no Part P notification is required and it only needs a MWC

1. Building Regulation Part P is the law and merely states that all electrical work shall be done to ensure safety.
2. A certificate should be issued for all electrical work.
3. Building Regulation 12 is the law and lists notifiable work.

These three things are separate and none depends on another

MEIWC(MWC) or EIC is not dependent on whether notifiable or not.
Notifiable or not is nothing to do with Part P.
Notifiable or not is nothing to do with the type of certificate.

My question is: What can he provide me with now that will satisfy building control requirements? Is a test certificate sufficient? Or would he have to log it as a new job?

If the work was notifiable, you should have got a certificate (in a reasonable time) from the electrician and the electrician should notify NAPIT within thirty days. NAPIT notifies the LABC and you get a Certificate of Compliance (in a reasonable time).

As the thirty days is past, tell him to do the work again.

 

[MrDDIY]

He I would have hoped has already supplied you with a minor works certificate, he may need to issue a new one with a date after he became a scheme member. But as I said there was little tie between certificates and really just a money making exercise so as long as you get a compliance or completion no worries.

He hasn't supplied me with anything except an invoice since the install.

What do you mean by the bit in bold? is this a type of certificate? I just want him to do the notification to Building Control bit and get a confirmation of that so I can go about boarding up my loft and not have to worry about a potential rewire in the future.

 

[MrDDIY]

If the work was notifiable, you should have got a certificate (in a reasonable time) from the electrician and the electrician should notify NAPIT within thirty days. NAPIT notifies the LABC and you get a Certificate of Compliance (in a reasonable time).

As the thirty days is past, tell him to do the work again.

Is there a cost associated for him when he reports it to NAPIT? I'd rather he just flag it as a new install now and report as if he's installed it now and get the LABC notification done. To redo the line would mean to rip out sealant, tiles etc and then get them back in which is a headache I could do without preferably.

 

[ericmark]

The LABC issues a completion certificate, the scheme provider issues a compliance certificate both do the same job.

 

[Risteard]

Is there a cost associated for him when he reports it to NAPIT? I'd rather he just flag it as a new install now and report as if he's installed it now and get the LABC notification done. To redo the line would mean to rip out sealant, tiles etc and then get them back in which is a headache I could do without preferably.

That would be fraudulent.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Is there a cost associated for him when he reports it to NAPIT?

Just a few pounds. Less than a fiver when I retired six yeas ago.

I'd rather he just flag it as a new install now and report as if he's installed it now and get the LABC notification done. To redo the line would mean to rip out sealant, tiles etc and then get them back in which is a headache I could do without preferably.

Yes, but he knows what he has done.

If the cable is still as he installed it, he can test it again.

The options for type of work listed when he reports it to NAPIT are very vague; things like "New Circuit", "Replacement Consumer Unit".
I am not sure what your work would be classed as. Perhaps "Alterations to circuit in bathroom".

Perhaps someone else has an up to date list.

Whatever it is, there are no details included and no certificates are sent to NAPIT nor LABC.


If he tests his own work now and puts that date on the certificate, I don't really think that would be fraudulent, would it?

I suspect Risteard will say yes.

 

[flameport]

Is there a cost associated for him when he reports it to NAPIT?

£3+VAT

However work must be notified with 21 days of it being completed, and rather obviously there is no facility to notify work which was completed when the person wasn't a member of the scheme.