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Boiler efficiency in the real world - old WB vs new Intergas

Discussion in 'Plumbing and Central Heating' started by StuB, 17 Jan 2019.

  1. Razor900

    Razor900

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    Interesting theory....

    Because it can't be backed up with real life experience can it? How many Intergas PCBs have been taken out by the pump?

    Far more PCB's get taken out on boilers when the pump leaks and water gets into the pump causing a dead short.

    So how did you make that leap?
     
  2. bernardgreen

    bernardgreen

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    The PCB should have protection against that type of fault. But to add that protection would increase the manufacturing cost of the PCB and that would mean less profit.
     
  3. Razor900

    Razor900

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    It does have protection it takes out the fast blow fuse. I have never changed an IG PCB taken out by a pump.

    It should also be noted that ERP pumps run at much lower power outputs than older versions so are far less likely to draw excessive amperage during a fault condition
     
  4. Gasguru

    Gasguru

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    I'm talking about the Xtreme and Xclusives that both appear to use the same Wilo pump with the drive electronics intergrated onto the main boiler pcb. There are only 3 wires connecting the pump. This is not compliant with the drive standards that Grundfos/Wilo and Xylem drew up several years ago...the conclusion being that Wilo/intergas have gone off on a tangent.
    Old standard efficiency pumps would nearly always blow the 20mm fuses(s) on the main board so not a big deal.

    Are you guaranteing that any pump failure on these newer Intergas's will not cause a main pcb fault...eg. a stalled rotor, shorted windings, water ingress to the terminals/coill etc will not cause an issue. That's some clever design and no other manufacturer has ever achieved such reliability with similar designs. Look at how many Isar/Icos main pcbs were taken out by failed fans or Ecotec pcbs taken out by diverters....there are many other examples.

    These models have not been out that long and given how few any gas installers come across Intergas boilers I can't comment on reliability but what I can see is the likely parts prices (which are high) and the fact that pump failure is often not covered under warranty. I think it's only fair to point out any potential design shortcomings. I'm not aware of any other boiler manufacturer splitting the drive electronics from their pumps...why have Intergas gone down this route. It can and often does result in sky high repair bills for customers when not covered by the warranty...and there doesn't appear to be any good reason for doing so other than tying the customer into buying the replacement pump from Intergas.
     
  5. Razor900

    Razor900

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    Intergas do many things differently from other manufacturers. No one else really managed to make a heat exchanger like theirs work either

    Your post is inaccurate. There are 4 wires connecting the pump to the boiler - the same as every other ERP boiler.

    Most system pumps have only three wires connecting them do none of them comply to these drive standards?

    I'm not guaranteeing anything mechanical. That's a stupid leading question to ask on a public forum I'm saying that in my experience, (almost certainly the greatest in the UK) I have never seen a failed ERP pump take out a PCB on an Intergas as for not doing things the same as everyone else that's what being innovative means

    The Xclusive comes with a ten year parts and labour warranty and the pump is most definitely included - as is the PCB.................
     
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  6. vulcancontinental

    vulcancontinental

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    Well there are some misunderstandings there because Grunfos, I don't know about Wilo, make several versions of the OEM UPS3. We use one with the two connectors, LNE and two PWM signal wires. Control is from the board and adjusts pump performance to try and achieve a good delta T I believe. The very same pump works happily on lower spec boilers as a fixed speed pump with no control wires.

    Other versions made for OEM users incorporate the logic in the pump, another is available which can be programmed by Grunfos or the boiler manufacturer for either and yet another by the installing engineer for head curve on the pump itself.
     
  7. Gasguru

    Gasguru

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    From the diagrams in the manuals, the models I've seen at the trade shows and speaking to the staff on the stands I believe I am correct...they are not standard pumps but maybe I'm wrong.
    In the MI's it shows the pump connections to be 3 wires and an Earth. That's not a standard wiring pattern. The normal driver pcb section appears to be missing from the front of that Wilo pump.

    The normal high efficiency pumps have a LNE connection (3 wires) and either an additional 2 or 3 control lines dependent on whether the boiler also utilises the feedback signal.
    Maybe Intergas are referencing the PWM signal to Earth but again that would be unusual.

    A warranty is easily voided if you invoke the clause regarding system debris...who knows the situation in years to come.

    The issue here is the trend for boiler manufacturers to overcomplicate design by either splitting say pump and driver or fan and driver or the incorporation of several boiler components into one module (Ecoblue fan assembly, Viessman 200 fan assembly) thereby significantly increasing the potential cost of repair.
    Unless there is a logical reason for doing so I would conclude it's to bring in extra repair revenue or have greater control over the future availability of parts.
     
  8. bernardgreen

    bernardgreen

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    Taking out a fuse requires an abnormally high current. If that abnormally high current was only on the power supply to the pump then that "protection" may have been effective in protecting the PCB from serious damage. If the abnormally high current or voltage was on one or more of the control circuits ( PMW to pump, tacho from pump etc ) then by the time the fuse had blown interface circuits on those control lines could have been damaged. Protection is preventing interface circuits from being damaged by abnormal currents / voltages.

    Built in obsolecence is not a new practice. It has long been a practice intended to create extra revenue from repair or replacement.

    Several pumps and or fans apear to operate with either a PWM control or a variable voltage level. They simply convert the PWM signal to a voltage level and use that to control the speed the motor runs at.

    If the PMW driver on the PCB has been damaged and is putting a steady but random voltage on the control line ( instead of PMW pulses ) then the pump or fan will run at the speed that random voltage commands it to. Does the average service technician who has just replaced a pump or fan have the necessary test equipment to confirm that the control line(s) from the PCB are operating correctly and not just issuing a random voltage. ?
     
  9. durhamplumber

    durhamplumber

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  10. durhamplumber

    durhamplumber

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    Not convinced of that,at all,when a short circuit occurs.
     
  11. durhamplumber

    durhamplumber

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    Rofl ..self praise is no praise!
     
  12. StuB

    StuB

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    @mrbrunes

    Just a further update on this. The Xclusive 36 boiler was installed as scheduled and the end result is a boiler that works as expected and all of the building regs paperwork and warranty has been sent through.

    While I have no idea how efficient it is compared to the old boiler as we've not had it long enough a couple of observations are

    • The DHW works with even a very low flow of water which is great
    • When it's running at full tilt such as for a shower or when the heating first starts it's fairly loud, louder than the previous boiler. It's not a nasty noise just a whoosh, presumably it's just the fan running and as it's in our closed utility room it's not a problem for us but if it was on the wall in a kitchen or similar it would be something to think about. Other than the first minute or two when the heating starts from cold it's pretty silent.
    • The height and width is the same as the previous boiler but it's not as deep which is nice.
    • It seems to control water temperature brilliantly if the flow varies
    • It looks like it integrates with our Drayton Wiser via Opentherm perfectly.
    • It has a 10 year guarantee assuming it's serviced on time.
    • It looked a nice and simple design inside
    Overall I'm impressed so far and hopefully it carries on working.
     
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  13. simond

    simond

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    Interesting about the pump.

    I’ve fitted an Intergas cheap model for myself and it wouldn’t run from new. I found that the Wilo pump impeller had seized.

    I took it out and cleaned it of some surface rust and off we went.

    I can set the ch flow temps low because I fitted the rads, so no scalding.

    I use it in a campervan because it is easy to drain the HW section.
     
  14. ianmcd

    ianmcd

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    well dumber plumber, most of us learned engineers would agree with @Razor900 on that, he is the authority on Intergas you stick to your washing machines
     
  15. bernardgreen

    bernardgreen

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    Maybe he is, but is Intergas the gold standard in boiler technology ?
     
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