Boiler in a cupboard in a bathroom

[tekkiesteve]

Pensdown if what you are saying is true i have seen the regs breached hundreds of times i.e airing cupboards within zone 2.
Which issue of the Nic rag was it in?

 

[bernardgreen]

Pensdown if what you are saying is true i have seen the regs breached hundreds of times i.e airing cupboards within zone 2.
Which issue of the Nic rag was it in?

Airing cupboard with hot water tank or a cupboard with a boiler in it.

The only danger with an airing cupboard with hot water tank would be the immersion heater if fitted. ( electric operated valves may also be found but should be outside the shower room.

To be honest I feel the whole of a bath room / shower room where a hose pipe ( shower head ) can be used to squirt water in any direction should be an electric free area other than IP45 minimum where the limited ingress is not going to do anything more than trip the RCD.

 

[ChrisR]

Thanks to Pensdown and others who have answered helpfully.
It's very obvious that there's a lot of uncertainty about the question. I was aware of that to a point having asked similar things of sparkies over the years, I hoped something more definitive may have crystallised!

This stipulation makes requirements of a cupboard with its door open, which is a bit odd:

1. The cupboard must prevent access to the boiler by a person who is anywhere in zone 1 or 2 even with the cupboard the door open.

So you're standing in front of the cupboard, door open, and you mustn't be able to put your arms in...
OK, so cupboard gets its door screwed shut, only for access for maintenance.
The NIC article (though not quite a normative document!!) seems to make it clear that a suitable enclosure does allow putting the boiler in a lower-numbered zone.

With regard to asking questions here of pro Electricians - why not? Corgi qualification covers practically nothing electrical. People ask questions all the time on the plumbing forum about where gas pipes can go, etc.

Securespark obviously hasn't asked many questions of boiler manufacturers. I do it most weeks. All they want to do is read out what it says in the manual. They aren't qualified electricians on the end of the phone, they aren't empowered to give instruction on cupboards (beyond pointing to the BS, which doesn't address these exact issues). This forum, (and others) is a way of putting a question before a lot of specialists who may have the reference to the normative doc at their fingertips.

I am even more gobsmacked that you have still, despite several attempts at giving you advice, failed to contact the manufacturer's technical helpline to ask advice about your situation. They make the equipment, they know best about it.

You fail to appreciate that the question is about IEE regs, not the damn boiler..

Your drivel about all the manufacturers say about it is refer to IEE regs does not wash.

Then try reading a few or phoning a few. Washed? You'll get drowned.

I'll spell it out. The B.M will say which zone what item (depending on timers etc) can go in. They are not in a position to interpret IEE regs - and they are not obliged on the tech help likes, to even know them.

You may think I'm harsh.

NO. It's just that you're wrong - AND you haven't come up with an answer.

 

[ChrisR]

To be honest I feel the whole of a bath room / shower room where a hose pipe ( shower head ) can be used to squirt water in any direction should be an electric free area other than IP45 minimum where the limited ingress is not going to do anything more than trip the RCD.

Can't disagree with that feeling.

 

[securespark]

Chris, my dear fellow! I am sorry that you have got all hot under the collar.

You have obviously got the wrong end of the stick. Your query may indeed involve the regs, but first you should contact the manufacturers to see if the boiler is OK sited in a certain zone, this they will know. I dispute what you say about the manufacturer's knowledge of regs - it is something they should be well aware of, as it affects their product, and the existing bathroom zones changes are well-established.

Actually, I have had cause over the last 20-odd years to discuss technical matters with boiler (and countless other) manufacturers & have found them extremely helpful & knowlegeable - best of all is Worcester. You have obviously (no offence) been speaking to all the wrong people. If you talk to a chicken in a call centre or office, they will not know more than is in front of them. You need the technical helpline - these people have far more knowledge.

Also, which trade organisations are you in touch with, apart from Corgi?

How about the HHIC? You must know of their existence. They have some very helpful information on their website & could no doubt help you further on this matter if you ring them up.

This is not a dig, maybe you should gen up on electrical installations & regulations at a professional level.

 

[Pensdown]

Pensdown if what you are saying is true i have seen the regs breached hundreds of times i.e airing cupboards within zone 2.
Which issue of the Nic rag was it in?

We have all seen the same but most if not all were built before the current zones were introduced.

Winter edition "from the help desk" The question was about a boxed in CU in zone 2 but the rules are the same.

 

[Pensdown]

Chrisr..Think about it logically. If I were to install a socket in zone 2 you would agree that it wouldn't meet the current regs. However, if I boxed it in so it couldn't be used I could argue that it's no longer in zone 2 and doesn't represent a hazard, just like a socket backing into zone 2 but in another room.

But if the boxing in has a door on the front then the socket is still in zone 2 when the door is open and it is a hazard.

 

[RF Lighting]

Its just like the space under a bathtub.

It changes zones if it is not accesible without the use of a tool.

 

[tekkiesteve]

It doesn't change zones,its outside zones if accessible only with the use of a tool.
So surely if the door is secured/screwed regs have been met.

 

[Pensdown]

Steve, as I said above if it's boxed in with screwed door that does change the zone, however, because a boiler has user controls I'm not sure how you could sensibly control safe access? As soon as Chrisr walks out the door the screws will be out and never put back and that’s how any inspector would see it.

On a commercial site it’s much easier to control access by procedure but in a domestic bathroom it's virtually impossible so I would recommend the boiler be moved to a more suitable location.

 

[tekkiesteve]

But the regs contradict the blurb in the nic connections mag,how on earth does a bath panel with two screws in it limit the extent of zone 1.

 

[Spark123]

The zones are aimed at persons who are using the bathtub i.e. have a reduced body resistance owing to being wet and being unclothed. If there is a panel on it which can only be removed with the use of a tool there is little likelyhood of a person who is using the bath coming into contact with anything behind the panel.

 

[tekkiesteve]

The argument/point i am trying to make is that the boiler is definately not allowed to be fitted in zone 1/2 (601-08-01).
But the op was going to fit it within the confines of a secured cupboard (you could read that as small room) in zone 2 now imho
theres a world of difference between that and a bath panel secured
in zone 1.

Spark 123 i take your point about it being aimed at a person using the bath but the Nic mag states that in order for the cupboard to effectively
limit the extent of zones 1/2 two requirements must be satisfied.
1/ The cupboard must prevent access to the consumer unit by a person who is ANYWHERE in zones 1/2.
(Very sensible).


2/The consumer unit will almost certainly not provide the min degree of protection required by reg 601-06-01 for equipment in zones 1/2 (ipx4 or ipx5 where water jets are likey to be used for cleaning purposes or communal showers). the cupboard with its door closed, must provide the
required degree of protection to the consumer unit.

Does the ip rating of a bath panel magically go up when you secure it with
screws?
This is where the regs are absolutely ludicrous when technically you could fit a cu beneath a bath.

This is obviously some nic suits interpretation of reg's, which as usual just
shows how whoolly they can be!

 

[Spark123]

Just because a panel makes the underside of a bath inacessable to persons using the bath doesn't mean it is a suitable place to put any old electrical item! All electrical item must be selected and erected taking into account amongst everything else, any external influences. See chapter 51 of the regs.

 

[ChrisR]

You have obviously got the wrong end of the stick. Your query may indeed involve the regs, but first you should contact the manufacturers to see if the boiler is OK sited in a certain zone, this they will know.

I don't need to ask them that - it's in the installation instructions. I have called the same manufacturer twice on this. First guy said they couldn't advise on cupboards because they don't specify that sort of thing - ask an electrician. Second one said a "zone 3" boiler could go in zone 2 if it was in a cupboard but he wasn't sure if it had to need a tool to open it. These were both Worcester. Baxi guy said a kitchen cupboard would do it and no need for a lock/screws.
I don't share your faith in these people.

I dispute what you say about the manufacturer's knowledge of regs - it is something they should be well aware of, as it affects their product, and the existing bathroom zones changes are well-established.

Maybe they should, though I'm not sure that they should - but they don't.

Actually, I have had cause over the last 20-odd years to discuss technical matters with boiler (and countless other) manufacturers & have found them extremely helpful & knowlegeable - best of all is Worcester. You have obviously (no offence) been speaking to all the wrong people.

Why would I speak to the "wrong" people? Remember I speak to the same people a lot. It doesn't take long - the first couple of dozen calls - to work out which individuals are most worth listening to.
They cover all ends of the scales of helpfulness and knowledge. But it is absolutely NOT their remit to represent an authority on electrical regs. Nor to speculate on the suitability of a cupboard whose spec they don't have.

I don't get "hot under the collar" about this sort of thing, I just point out the silliness of those who suggest that I should know the answer , when you folk are having quite some difficulty sorting it out!

I've spoken to "my" electrician (qualified 20 odd years), who also feels it's an unclear area, and is unsure if there's a proper definition. I respect him for saying so. We've agreed to go one notch safer than we think is called for by the regs.