building regs/smoke alarms

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

Which is the issue in regards to the loft conversion, as mentioned in the original post.
So smoke alarms should be fitted as per building regulations then? Or just to the converted loft space?

Then they should be fitted with smokes and any other existing or new rooms that may impede escape.
To ensure occupants of new rooms are warned of fire

Personally I would install or price to install as stated by PBofD as I'm sure any self respecting electrician would on a rewire.

I do both, quote with and without.

 

[Starspark1]

I would personally put this down to lack of experience? perhaps slightly naive?

If you were designing this installation would you quote and push to install smoke detectors on all floors or not?

I would quote with and without if not needed and push for them yes. However if the customer was adamant on not having them and there was no requirements and everything else was above board then I wouldn't be pig headed enough to walk away from the job just because I didn't agree with there decision . If u did that then everytime a designer or architect was on a job u would never do any jobs!!

 

[vibrobullit407]

Maybe you should listen to the APPROVED electrician as obviously he is the competent person on the job and seems to know a lot more.

After being on this job and some of the working methods this joker has implemented have cast serious doubts in my mind on his competence. For example he has chosen to mount the consumer unit in the basement, meaning that the customer may have to walk down a possibly pitch black staircase and through a pitch black basement with differing floor levels and height restrictions in areas, to check the board in case of a fault, instead of positioning it in a more easily accessible position. He has also decided to use metal clad surface mounted sockets in the basement with the wiring enclosed in PVC mini trunking instead of conduit, meaning chasing behind the sockets to come in the rear. Also telling the customer that he has got to have an IPx4 light in the bathroom even though its outside of the zones.

So maybe a bit of naivety on his part trying to go it alone. Seems like the sort that needs to be supervised and may struggle getting to grips with his own business!

 

[Starspark1]

Indeed it does! However he did seem to know what he was talking about regarding the smoke alarms and you didn't! And your the one working for him! So despite everything you have said what does that say about you??
Surely u must have known previously of his methods before this job if u don't agree with them then why did you agree to help?
I actually fear for the customer! On the one hand one hand there 1 of u demanding smoke alarms he doesn't have to have and the other one doing whatever he likes! I bet the poor customer feels like he is being smashed from pillar to post!
Did you actually check all those things weren't specified by the customer and the guy running the job is going along with it as I doubt a paying customer would accept things he didn't want, like or ask for!
I think you, the customer and the other spark need to talk to each other and find out what the hell is going on before you all start going down your own paths and making assumptions that ultimately are disastrous!!

 

[vibrobullit407]

Indeed it does! However he did seem to know what he was talking about regarding the smoke alarms and you didn't! And your the one working for him! So despite everything you have said what does that say about you??
I actually fear for the customer! On the one hand one hand there 1 of u demanding smoke alarms he doesn't have to have and the other one doing whatever he likes! I bet the poor customer feels like he is being smashed from pillar to post!
Did you actually check all those things weren't specified by the customer and the guy running the job is going along with it as I doubt a paying customer would accept things he didn't want, like or ask for!
I think you, the customer and the other spark need to talk to each other and find out what the hell is going on before you all start going down your own paths and making assumptions that ultimately are disastrous!!

When it comes to the smoke alarm statement I believe you are wrong and that they are required due to the conversion of the loft. I've cut and pasted this off a building control guidance note;

LOFT CONVERSIONS TO DWELLINGS
" 5.
Automatic smoke detection and alarms.
Mains powered and battery backed up (either rechargeable or rechargeable) smoke detectors must be installed on each storey in accordance with BS5839-6: 2004 – Grade D - category LD3 standard.
All detectors must be interlinked together so that all sound even if only one is triggered and must be placed in the circulation spaces / protected stairway within 7.5m of every habitable room door. If however due to the layout of the loft there is no circulation space, a smoke detector should be fitted in the loft room itself.
Smoke detectors should be mains powered to a single independent circuit on the dwellings mains consumer unit or a single regularly used local lighting circuit. Provide a means of isolating power to the smoke alarms without isolating the lighting.
Detectors are to be positioned so that they can be reached for maintenance and testing i.e. not over stairs etc.
If floor area of the loft exceeds 200m2, the building will be considered to be a ‘large house’ and the fire detection system will need to be improved as follows:
a)
Large dwellings of 2 storeys (excluding basements) to have fire detection / alarm system of Grade B - Category LD3 (BS 5839-6: 2004).
b)
Large dwellings of 3 or more storeys (excluding basements) to have fire detection / alarm system of Grade A - Category LD2 (BS 5839-6: 2004)."

With regards to the materials that the "approved" electrician ordered in regards to the mini trunking and metal clad sockets. He did not notice his mistake until I explained. With the IPx4 light he thought that you had to fit them in a bathroom as he seemed to have no concept of the zones. With the consumer unit his response was that his was in the basement and as he lived next door then it would be alright! Hence why I am questioning his competence now!

By the way, why are you getting sooooo defensive? Doe's this sound familiar or something?

 

[Starspark1]

Well again you should relay all this to him! If you didn't agree then why didn't you say something?
I'm not at all defensive its just this whole scenario seems inconceivable for instance if you didn't agree why didn't you say something? Why did you continue to work for 2 days? Do you work for yourself? If so how and when were you going to declare tax etc if its above board?
I actually believe what's happened here is you are doing a job for someone they have railroaded you with what they do and don't want etc you have begrudgingly gone along with it but now have realised your mistakes and become worried and now you can't say anything because number 1 its a foreigner , number 2 you have not informed building control and number 3 you agreed an original price and now you don't want to upset him with add ons and demanding he contact building control when you probably said all these things would be fine originally.
Call me sceptical but There us just too many discrepancies in your story for it to be believeable.
I'm glad I'm not in the position I believe you to be in!
Good luck with it all anyway hope it all works out.

 

[vibrobullit407]

Well again you should relay all this to him! If you didn't agree then why didn't you say something?
I'm not at all defensive its just this whole scenario seems inconceivable for instance if you didn't agree why didn't you say something? Why did you continue to work for 2 days? Do you work for yourself? If so how and when were you going to declare tax etc if its above board?
I actually believe what's happened here is you are doing a job for someone they have railroaded you with what they do and don't want etc you have begrudgingly gone along with it but now have realised your mistakes and become worried and now you can't say anything because number 1 its a foreigner , number 2 you have not informed building control and number 3 you agreed an original price and now you don't want to upset him with add ons and demanding he contact building control when you probably said all these things would be fine originally.
Call me sceptical but There us just too many discrepancies in your story for it to be believeable.
I'm glad I'm not in the position I believe you to be in!
Good luck with it all anyway hope it all works out.

At the end of the day I was working to the "approved" electricians design and flagged up my concerns in regards to the smoke detectors and methods of installation. With regards to mats ordered and positions they do not breach the regulations. It is just very poor design. The major issues are the lack of smoke detectors and the fact that I have found out that he has not notified the work hence why I have removed myself from the job and left this "approved" electrician to his own devices. I have to agree with you the job sounds absolutely ridiculous and unbelievable but I can assure you it is exactly like I have said. It is literally shocking what some "approved electricians" seem to think they can get away with and seem to have no concerns of peoples well being. Just wondering whether or not to inform BC or just to leave it alone!

 

[RF Lighting]

Indeed it does! However he did seem to know what he was talking about regarding the smoke alarms and you didn't! And your the one working for him! So despite everything you have said what does that say about you??
I actually fear for the customer! On the one hand one hand there 1 of u demanding smoke alarms he doesn't have to have and the other one doing whatever he likes! I bet the poor customer feels like he is being smashed from pillar to post!
Did you actually check all those things weren't specified by the customer and the guy running the job is going along with it as I doubt a paying customer would accept things he didn't want, like or ask for!
I think you, the customer and the other spark need to talk to each other and find out what the hell is going on before you all start going down your own paths and making assumptions that ultimately are disastrous!!

When it comes to the smoke alarm statement I believe you are wrong and that they are required due to the conversion of the loft. I've cut and pasted this off a building control guidance note;

LOFT CONVERSIONS TO DWELLINGS
" 5.
Automatic smoke detection and alarms.
Mains powered and battery backed up (either rechargeable or rechargeable) smoke detectors must be installed on each storey in accordance with BS5839-6: 2004 – Grade D - category LD3 standard.
All detectors must be interlinked together so that all sound even if only one is triggered and must be placed in the circulation spaces / protected stairway within 7.5m of every habitable room door. If however due to the layout of the loft there is no circulation space, a smoke detector should be fitted in the loft room itself.
Smoke detectors should be mains powered to a single independent circuit on the dwellings mains consumer unit or a single regularly used local lighting circuit. Provide a means of isolating power to the smoke alarms without isolating the lighting.
Detectors are to be positioned so that they can be reached for maintenance and testing i.e. not over stairs etc.
If floor area of the loft exceeds 200m2, the building will be considered to be a ‘large house’ and the fire detection system will need to be improved as follows:
a)
Large dwellings of 2 storeys (excluding basements) to have fire detection / alarm system of Grade B - Category LD3 (BS 5839-6: 2004).
b)
Large dwellings of 3 or more storeys (excluding basements) to have fire detection / alarm system of Grade A - Category LD2 (BS 5839-6: 2004)."

With regards to the materials that the "approved" electrician ordered in regards to the mini trunking and metal clad sockets. He did not notice his mistake until I explained. With the IPx4 light he thought that you had to fit them in a bathroom as he seemed to have no concept of the zones. With the consumer unit his response was that his was in the basement and as he lived next door then it would be alright! Hence why I am questioning his competence now!

By the way, why are you getting sooooo defensive? Doe's this sound familiar or something?

You're not doing a loft conversion, you're doing a rewire. I'll say it again and no doubt you'll ignore it again. Smoke alarms are desireable but they are NOT compulsary.

As for a CU in a cellar, there's nothing wrong with that at all. Moving it upstairs is just making more work for your self unless the customer has actually asked for it to be moved.

 

[vibrobullit407]

You're not doing a loft conversion, you're doing a rewire. I'll say it again and no doubt you'll ignore it again. Smoke alarms are desireable but they are NOT compulsary.

The attic space is still to be boarded and skimmed and part of the rewire is to wire the conversion! Are they still not compulsary? By the way I don't think that BC have been involved in that either but that is a different story!

As for a CU in a cellar, there's nothing wrong with that at all. Moving it upstairs is just making more work for your self unless the customer has actually asked for it to be moved.

I did mention that it was not against the regulations, but given the dangers involved in walking across this specific basement in the dark I would definitely have pushed for moving it upstairs. This would mean running longer tails and not that much more work! But this was not my design and not the reason for my main concern! The lack of smoke's and notification were the main reasons for walking away!

 

[RF Lighting]

So this job is now an attic conversion? Has it been notified to BCO? Are there steels and fire doors going in as part of this project? Have you put new wiring into this room? Is the new room a habitable space?

Nothing wrong with a CU in a cellar at all. What happens if the power trips at night in the house? It's still gonna be dark.

 

[vibrobullit407]

So this job is now an attic conversion? Has it been notified to BCO? Are there steels and fire doors going in as part of this project? Have you put new wiring into this room? Is the new room a habitable space?

Yes new wiring to the conversion and as mentioned no BC involvement by the looks of things. Steels have been installed and floor joists strengthened but as I'm not a builder then don't know whether it has been done properly, but looks good!

Nothing wrong with a CU in a cellar at all. What happens if the power trips at night in the house? It's still gonna be dark.

In this instance I feel the differing floor and ceiling levels are a worry. I tend to work on a more site specific basis and work my risk assessments around the site and not generalisations!

 

[RMS]

Nothing wrong with a CU in a cellar at all. What happens if the power trips at night in the house? It's still gonna be dark.

Trips an MCB? An RCD? An RCBO?

Then you've clearly failed to comply with 314.1.

Unless you have a total loss of power to the installation.

 

[SimonH2]

I think the OP should point out to the customer that the customer is legally responsible for work being notified, and that the electrician in charge hasn't done so. It wouldn't be the first story on here along the lines of "it turns out the electrician wasn't in a scheme and couldn't self notify" - one of my colleagues at work got stuck with this, turns out that the electrician was using this job to pay for his scheme membership but things didn't work out (luckily the BC guy was fairly accommodating about it).

As to the smoke detectors, it does sound like there is a loft conversion going on - so from the earlier posts it seems there should be an alarm.

As to the basement, I'd be suggesting to the customer that it was advisable even if not legally required. As the CU is in the basement, it would require very little by way of materials since the alarms should be fed from the CU anyway.

 

[RMS]

Just wondering whether or not to inform BC or just to leave it alone!

Vibro,

Did you make your mind up on the above?

Did you return to complete the job?

 

[vibrobullit407]

Just wondering whether or not to inform BC or just to leave it alone!

Vibro,

Did you make your mind up on the above?

Did you return to complete the job?

I have given an anonymous call to BC that they may need to investigate. With regards to returning I decided against it. I do not want to be associated with the standard of the installation that has been designed. I know it's not required by the regulations but no capping has been used and the customer is concreting the chases himself. And with the other electrician not being bothered to chase for a 3core and earth to control the hall light via a 2 way (he's talked the customer into having a time lag switch) I decided that enough was enough. A good reputation can take a while to gain and lost in a moment. Just not worth it really.