Callout charge

[Softus]

The way the legal system works is that you'd have to file a case

The term is "application" - you'd have to file an application. You should really find out more about how the legal system actually works, rather than continue telling people how you think it works.

...and the defendent has to file a defence.

No - the defendent has the right not to file any defence.

If his defence is that he's never heard of you, and you've got no paperwork, then the case won't proceed.

That is incorrect - the case will proceed to a hearing, and evidence will be heard at the hearing, and witnesses may be called.

If you're working on an hourly basis, then it's hard to imagine that simply writing down what the rate is, and getting a customer to sign it is too much effort.

I didn't say that writing down my rate was too much effort, and you never suggested that you would accept this bare minimum. You specifically proposed a system of "Providing detailed written quotes and getting customers to sign contracts", which is a system that would be too much effort for me because it would reduce the amount of time available for doing work, and I have more work than I can possibly undertake.

...also those guys who don't have the parts or say that the parts are only obtainable in a store the other side of town.

It sounds like you would prefer every engineer to carry every part for every appliance and fitting in the country; that is an impractical proposition, and therefore a stupid one.

Not to mention those that p**s in the water tank, or claim that they've replaced parts which they haven't. If you wish the general public to continue to have these views of your trade then by all means carry on. I won't be employing you.

There is nothing I do that contributes to that image. As far as anyone employing me - they don't. I'm self-employed, and therefore employed by nobody.

And if you meant to say that you wouldn't engage me, that's somewhat lame, since I'd already said that I wouldn't offer you my services.

My customers don't choose me - I choose them.

 

[Paul Barker]

"I got quoted over £200 for a new gas value "

Some gas valves cost £139 plus vat that's £163, then you have to pay us to diagnose fault and fit valve.

Go blame the manufacturers for expensive parts and the gas suppliers for sticky substance in gas which plugs their leaks and your gas valves..

 

[scott1968]

I now know the reason why some Corgi Engineers charge so much.
They only work part time,
and full time on this Forum.

Scott1968

 

[jdey]

Softus wrote:-
"No - the defendent has the right not to file any defence. ".

If the defendent doesn't file a defence then you're quids in. The judge would then look at your evidence and give you an automatic verdict. However, as you don't have any evidence, he'd probably refuse to adjudicate.

"jdey wrote:
If his defence is that he's never heard of you, and you've got no paperwork, then the case won't proceed.

softus wrote:
That is incorrect - the case will proceed to a hearing, and evidence will be heard at the hearing, and witnesses may be called. "

Right, so I can get the name & address of somebody out of the phone directory, accuse them of not paying me and they've got to appear before a judge? I think you'll find it doesn't quite work like that. Before it's decided whether a hearing takes place, it's decided whether there's a case to answer. If you've got no evidence and the defendent says he's never heard of you, there's no case. Why do you imagine that an estate agent, for example, takes time to get you to sign a contract before selling your house? Simply because some customers would refuse to pay him if he didn't, and he'd lose mucho dollares.

"Softus wrote:
I didn't say that writing down my rate was too much effort, and you never suggested that you would accept this bare minimum. You specifically proposed a system of "Providing detailed written quotes and getting customers to sign contracts", which is a system that would be too much effort for me because it would reduce the amount of time available for doing work, and I have more work than I can possibly undertake....It sounds like you would prefer every engineer to carry every part for every appliance and fitting in the country; that is an impractical proposition, and therefore a stupid one."

I'd accept an hourly rate for repair work, but not for planned work, which I'd insist on a written quote. A contract is merely a signature. A verbal contract does exist, but without a witness it's worthless. They're more often used when there's a long established relationship e.g. employer/employee situation where no written contract was provided. I'd have told you on the phone what the make & model of my boiler was so I'd expect you to turn up with the parts, not charge me 2 hours+ for you to go and smoke a fag in your van.

"There is nothing I do that contributes to that image."
Not providing written confirmation of how much you'll be charging a customer, and not having all the parts to fix a model that your customer has asked you to fix contributes to the poor image. If you visit a dentist, you pay for the diagnosis, and then pay for the treatment. You don't pay for the dentist to go out and buy the fillings.

 

[Softus]

If the defendent doesn't file a defence then you're quids in.

I agree that the defendant places him/herself at a disadvantage in not filing a defence. However, it is not a guarantee of success.

The judge would then look at your evidence and give you an automatic verdict.

You've changed your tune - previously you claimed the case wouldn't even be listed!

...However, as you don't have any evidence, he'd probably refuse to adjudicate.

In this hypothetical hearing, the evidence would be as follows:
1. My sworn testimony that I had carried out the work.
2. The fact that I could state the customer's name, address and telephone number.
3. My telephone bill, showing that I had called the customer.
4. A clear and detailed description of the inside of the customer's dwelling, including a detailed description of the heating system, position of the boiler, colour of the carpet/flooring where I was working, and many more details that only an engaged tradesman would know.

Right, so I can get the name & address of somebody out of the phone directory, accuse them of not paying me and they've got to appear before a judge? I think you'll find it doesn't quite work like that.

I think you'll find that it does. However, let's not forget that you would be lying, and without any evidence to back up your story you would be less likely to succeed, and in trying you would risk being accused of perjury and attempt to defraud.

Before it's decided whether a hearing takes place, it's decided whether there's a case to answer. If you've got no evidence and the defendent says he's never heard of you, there's no case.

You might be right, although I'm curious to know who you believe makes that decision, and when. However, in this hypothetical scenario, there is plenty of evidence that supports my case.

Why do you imagine that an estate agent, for example, takes time to get you to sign a contract before selling your house? Simply because some customers would refuse to pay him if he didn't, and he'd lose mucho dollares.

Since you've asked me imagine it, I imagine that (a) his code of conduct requires him to do that, and that (b) there is a business risk that he could not collect a fee without it. However, this is only what I imagine, and you might tell me that I'm wrong, in which case I would be happy to learn from you. In my business the risk is negligable, and I have never failed to collect payment, although sometimes I have been to court in order to collect.

I'd accept an hourly rate for repair work, but not for planned work, which I'd insist on a written quote. A contract is merely a signature.

No. A written contract does not have to contain a signature. A verbal contract does not contain any writing, or a signature.

A verbal contract does exist, but without a witness it's worthless.

Er, also untrue. You're going for quite a run of incorrect assertions!

They're more often used when there's a long established relationship e.g. employer/employee situation where no written contract was provided.

It is now illegal to employ sometime on a full-time basis without written particulars of employment, but I don't know to which other kind of employment relationship you might be irrelevantly referring here.

I'd have told you on the phone what the make & model of my boiler was so I'd expect you to turn up with the parts

Your expectation that an engineer would go and buy every spare part for your boiler, that might fix the symptom that you described, is not reasonable. It is not possible to run a business in that manner, and if you had any experience of running a business then you would know that.

...not charge me 2 hours+ for you to go and smoke a fag in your van.

If this is the kind of tradesman that you're used to engaging, then I suspect your untrusting attitude has a lot to do with the fact that you see only untrustworthy people. Personally, I don't smoke, I don't have a van, and I don't have enough spare time to spend it sitting anywhere.

There is nothing I do that contributes to that image.

Not providing written confirmation of how much you'll be charging a customer, and not having all the parts to fix a model that your customer has asked you to fix contributes to the poor image.

It doesn't seem very likely that you're right, because many more than half of my customers whose boilers I fix, which is only one of the engineering services I provide, call me back for other work. One customer was so pleased that she didn't want anyone except me to install her broadband equipment and a small Ethernet-based home network. And her boiler problem took three visits to solve, after two other engineers had failed.

If you visit a dentist, you pay for the diagnosis, and then pay for the treatment.

No. I don't. I pay one bill only, and it's not split into diagnosis and treatment. I believe this to be usual for dentists, although clearly not for yours.

You don't pay for the dentist to go out and buy the fillings.

Don't I? Oh, OK then. What has this got to do with boilers?

So, if my only contribution to your perception of rogue traders arises because I've written here that I don't and won't quote, then I don't regard that as a significant contribution.

 

[scott1968]

Hire Gorgi Engineer and get DIY lawyer

Scott1968

 

[jdey]

Softus, you admit that there's a business risk in the Estate agent scenario, but suggest that you've got no risk. I'm sure the Estate agent is better able to describe the colour of my carpet then you would be. In any case, I've never heard of pictures of the inside of a customer's house being required in your theoretical Small claims case. In any case, why would you bother taking a householder over a £200 bill, say, with so little evidence to win your case. It would cost you £30 to file your claim plus half a day's work for attending the court. At £80 per hour, you're potentially losing more money in lost earnings.

As you're aware, my point about the parts is that you shouldn't charge a customer for the time spent in obtaining parts, this is incorporated in your hourly rate.

I've definitely had some experience of dodgy plumbers. I think it's common knowledge that there are more than average bunch of cowboys in your profession as Rogue Traders, BBC Watchdog etc., statistics from Trading Standards etc. confirms. Corgi registration merely ensures that a plumber is competent, or at least went through some training & obtained experience. Many plumbers quote other people's Corgi numbers, however, so householders should be careful to check that at least the telephone number which is shown for that Corgi registration matches the one that you rang, and proceed with caution if the company's name has changed, as why would an honest trader need to change the company's name?

I don't know why you've made so much fuss about my original suggestion that you'd be better off getting things in writing before proceeding with diagnosis/work.

 

[ChrisR]

As you're aware, my point about the parts is that you shouldn't charge a customer for the time spent in obtaining parts, this is incorporated in your hourly rate.

An hourly rate for work on site is exactly that. If parts take time and vehicle costs, or postage costs, to get, why shouldn't the customer pay for it? If some allowance were to be made in every job for potential costs, then all those jobs would need to be charged higher. How the engineer does it, is his business; it isn't your place to tell him how to run it.

If you want an all-inclusive price, call the manufacturer. Baxi-Potterton would charge you £220 local to me.

If you don't ask what the rates rates are, it's your own fault. When I work through a local shop, the rate is £80 per hour + vat (£94). If people don't pay, the small claim court is used, and the shop always wins, plus £30(I think that's the current figure) costs. Nothing is ever signed on arrival.

 

[Softus]

Softus, you admit that there's a business risk in the Estate agent scenario...

I don't "admit" it, like I ever suggested anything different - I simply agreed with you. I've been in many jobs where I've been used to analysing risk, so it's easy for me to see that there is one.

...but suggest that you've got no risk.

No [sigh], I said that I have negligable risk. By this I mean that I consider the risk to be so small that it's not worthy of any mitigating action - I just deal with the occurrences when they happen. Given that this is easy to comprehend, I now believe that you're being deliberately obtuse.

I'm sure the Estate agent is better able to describe the colour of my carpet then you would be.

I'm not comparing my ability to that of an Estate Agent, but, and you would be forgiven for not knowing this, you are wrong. I've been asked to carry out property inventories for a letting agent that I know, because he doesn't know anyone with more attention to detail than me.

Another thing that you don't know is that I examine the carpet where I'm about to work, before putting down a dustsheet, so that I can detect any dirt left by me and remove it before I depart at the end of ths job. This is just one of the little ways in which my attention to detail causes me to be held in high regard by my customers.

In any case, I've never heard of pictures of the inside of a customer's house being required in your theoretical Small claims case.

Pictures? Are you nuts?

In any case, why would you bother taking a householder over a £200 bill, say, with so little evidence to win your case.

Maybe I would, and maybe I wouldn't - you're the one who came up with a figure of £200. And the idea that my proposed set of evidence is "little" is merely your opinion, which isn't worth very much since you've comprehensively demonstrated a serious lack of knowledge about the legal process.

It would cost you £30 to file your claim plus half a day's work for attending the court. At £80 per hour, you're potentially losing more money in lost earnings.

The court fee is reclaimable, as is any reasonable claim for loss of earnings. You really do have an astonishingly small amount of knowledge for someone who's basing an arguing upon it.

As for the hourly rate, I haven't told you mine.

As you're aware, my point about the parts is that you shouldn't charge a customer for the time spent in obtaining parts, this is incorporated in your hourly rate.

No. That time isn't incorporated into my hourly rate, and, contrary to your belief, you aren't entitled to tell me what I should and shouldn't be charging for.

I've definitely had some experience of dodgy plumbers. I think it's common knowledge that there are more than average bunch of cowboys in your profession

The thing you regard as common knowledge is actually a common myth, because very few people ever have the figures to back up what they say. For example, do you have any idea how many plumbers are believed to work in this country, and what proportion of those are affiliated to an industry body (e.g. IPHE, IoP)?

...as Rogue Traders, BBC Watchdog etc., statistics from Trading Standards etc. confirms.

Ah - it should have come as no surprise to me that you eventually held up those light entertainment programmes as some kind of bible for the unwary. But I was, until now, giving even you a little more credence than that.

Corgi registration merely ensures that a plumber is competent, or at least went through some training & obtained experience.

To be picky, gas heating engineers are CORGI registered, not plumbers.

Many plumbers quote other people's Corgi numbers, however, so householders should be careful to check that at least the telephone number which is shown for that Corgi registration matches the one that you rang, and proceed with caution if the company's name has changed, as why would an honest trader need to change the company's name?

I completely and utterly agree that consumers should always check credentials. Last week I gently scolded an elderly lady who had spoken to me on the phone, but hadn't met me, and didn't check me out when I arrived with a mate.

I don't know why you've made so much fuss about my original suggestion that you'd be better off getting things in writing before proceeding with diagnosis/work.

Each time you post something that is clearly intended to challenge me or ask me a question, I reply. That is not the same as making a fuss. It's very easy - when you stop posting things that I disagree with, then I'll stop pointing them out to you.

 

[jdey]

A contract requires a mutuality of agreement. If you've not told the customer how much he has to pay before commencing work then no contract exists. It's up to the complainant to prove that a contract is in place, knowing the colour of the defendent's carpet isn't enough proof.
Do you really think that court's waste their time adjudicating cases where there's no evidence?

 

[ChrisR]

If you've not told the customer how much he has to pay before commencing work then no contract exists.

Wrong.
In letting the work start , contract exists ... etc.

 

[jdey]

There has to be an offer on the part of the person offering the work, and an acceptance on the person wanting the work to be done. If no acceptance is given then no contract is entered in to.

http://www.oup.com/uk/orc/bin/0199268142/chapter03.pdf

The implied contract which you suggest can only be considered if the customer was informed of the fee beforehand. The OP asked for his boiler to be fixed and then rejected the offer before the plumber commenced work.

 

[Agile]

If your plumber adds £47 to his bill to cover his professional insurance in case he makes a mistake,would you be mad?

Tony

 

[jdey]

If your plumber adds £47 to his bill to cover his professional insurance in case he makes a mistake,would you be mad?

Tony

Unless it was accepted as a term when the contract was agreed, it's not enforceable in law.

 

[croydoncorgi]

Can't you guys stop now...
This is a plumbing & heating forum, not Oprah Winfrey 'My lawyer has bigger genitalia than yours'.