Can they can't they

[EFLImpudence]

Is the legislation still valid if new 'guidelines' have been issued?

or

How can new 'guidelines' be issued if the legislation is still in place?



Stay home unless you go out.

 

[JohnW2]

...I work for a housing landlord, and the electrical manager allows us to connect to the fcu, and I have replaced the switch plates on fcu’s, and sometimes have to decommission the old thermostat from it if installing a new wireless one. .... I’ve never been asked to fill out a mwc or notify the work. Would anyone say this is incorrect? Against the law? I was also told the wiring regulations aren’t enforceable?

1... The most crucial part o the law id that you should obey Part P of the Buildings Regs, which is just a single sentence essentially saying that the work must be done safely (such as not to endanger people or property).
2... Replacing or removing an existing part of an installation (e.g. an FCU, or even the cable feeding it, if damaged) has never been notifiable, even in the days when far more things were notifiable.
3... As I've been saying, adding a (new) FCU to an 'existing circuit' (and, by implication, feeding something from that FCU) was also (explicitly) NOT notifiable in the days of old. After they dramatically relaxed the requirement (in England) for notification, one of the few things that remained notifiable was 'creating a new circuit' and, as you will have seen, a few people take that 'literally' and (based on the BS7671 defintion of 'a circuit') therefore think that connecting something via a new FCU constitutes 'creating a new circuit' (the new circuit originating at the FCU), hence now notifiable. However, for the historical reasons I've just explained, I cannot believe that many people believe that this is what the authors of the new (post 2013) notification rules intended - no nearly everyone seems to believe that installing a new CU (fed from an 'existing circuit') continues to not be notifiable.
4... Although there is no legal requirement to comply with BS7671, most people use compliance with Part P as a means of demonstrating that they are complying with the law (Part P). BS7671 requires that ANY electrical work (even 'replacing a light switch') should result in some sort of certificate (either an EIC or Minor Works cert), but there is no reason why anyone (even a DIYer) should not complete a Minor Works cert (if they are able). In practice, of course, trivial electrical work (and virtually all DIY electrical work) often does not result in the production of any sort of certificate.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Is the legislation still valid if new 'guidelines' have been issued?
or
How can new 'guidelines' be issued if the legislation is still in place?

I really don't know what is going on as regards 'legislation' in this highly dynamic situation. I would certainly imagine that the relevant Secretaries of State are able to. more-or-less autonomously, 'modify'/'update' whatever legislation has been passed, on a day-by-day (or even hour-by-hour) basis if they have to. The general public obviously only see the Guidelines and other government pronouncements

Stay home unless you go out.

Except that we no longer need to "Stay at Home" at all, but rather "Stay Alert" now (you tell me )

Kind Regards, John

 

[securespark]

Are you saying that the government's published guidance document does not correctly reflect whatever relevant legislation they may have created?

Yes. Their Guidance is just that. It is not what the CV Regs say and is more restrictive.

In essence, you could meet with who you like in as many numbers as you like, as long as you are 2m or more away from each other.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes. Their Guidance is just that. It is not what the CV Regs say and is more restrictive.

Where do I find these regs (legislation?)? Are they revised very frequently?

Given the nature of the situation, are you sure that the Regs/legislation don't give the government the power to change 'the rules' (with 'the force of law') by issuing 'Guidelines'? Given the circumstances, that would seem a far more practical approach than having to revise the legislation virtually every day.

In essence, you could meet with who you like in as many numbers as you like, as long as you are 2m or more away from each other.

That would seem to make sense. Of course, until yesterday, I was seemingly not allowed to engage in 'unnecessary travel' to a place where I could meet people - and that presumably did have 'the power of law' (whether directly in legislation of whatever), since it appears that the police were in some cases enforcing that 'instruction'.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Yes. Their Guidance is just that. It is not what the CV Regs say and is more restrictive. In essence, you could meet with who you like in as many numbers as you like, as long as you are 2m or more away from each other.

Further to my last post, I've now found the Statutory Instrument [which modifies The Health Protection (Coronavirus, Restrictions) (England) (Amendment) (No. 2) Regulations 2020 ] that came into force yesterday, which says essentially the same as "the Guidance":

... (iii) after sub-paragraph (b), insert— “(ba) to visit a public open space for the purposes of open-air recreation to promote their physical or mental health or emotional wellbeing— (i) alone, (ii) with one or more members of their household, or (iii) with one member of another household;”;

The implication presumably is that there can be any number of other people 'in the open' space, provided one did not visit the open space "with" them.

The full SI can be found here .

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I see now it is one's 'civic duty' to avoid public transport -

so, why is any still running?

 

[securespark]

John,

I see they have updated it. When I looked, it wasn't updated.

If you think about it, the govt are saying that even if you go out with someone from another household, you must still distance 2m.

So what is the difference between distancing between you and a member of another household and you and 2 or more people from the same household or indeed you and a stranger that you meet in public that you have to distance from to get past in the street or whatever?

 

[JohnW2]

I see now it is one's 'civic duty' to avoid public transport - so, why is any still running?

Indeed - even the Transport Secretary had admitted today that it feels very odd for someone in hist role to be discouraging people from using public transport.

I suppose there is a major problem in big cities (particularly London) in that commuting to work by car is often not possible/practical (many/most of the people I know who live anywhere near the centre of London don't even have cars) - so I suppose public transport has to continue running.

The politicians certainly have my sympathies in this situation, since they are constantly finding themselves between great piles of rocks and great piles of hard places - and, on balance, I reckon they're doing a pretty good job (even if there are some things 'which don't make sense') under the circumstances.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

John, I see they have updated it. When I looked, it wasn't updated.

Not surprising. That particular SI was not 'laid before parliament' (I presume for 'rubber stamping') until 9.30am yesterday.

If you think about it, the govt are saying that even if you go out with someone from another household, you must still distance 2m.

I think the confusion they have created (in their understandable haste) is by seeming to distinguish between people "with whom" one "goes to an open space" and those who are already in that public space when one gets to it (or who arrive, independently, after one has arrived).

So what is the difference between distancing between you and a member of another household and you and 2 or more people from the same household or indeed you and a stranger that you meet in public that you have to distance from to get past in the street or whatever?

Quite so.

However, as I've just written, I do sympathise with these people. In my work I am often forced to try work to 'ridiculously tight' timelines (e.g. produce a 50-page document 'overnight'), but that is fortunately only occasionally (but does, inevitably, quite often results in errors and oversights on my part) - but these people are faced with trying to 'get things right' incredibly quickly, day after day and week after week.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnD]

(e.g. produce a 50-page document 'overnight')

the document has been in preparation for around three months.

or at any rate, should have been.

 

[JohnW2]

the document has been in preparation for around three months. or at any rate, should have been.

Yesterday's SI? Even a small number of weeks ago I'm sure that had too much to do, and on their minds, in relation to the situation they were dealing with at that time to have been considering the nature and wording of relaxations to the restrictions which they guessed might be considered a few weeks down the line. Indeed, I imagine that what the SI was actually going to 'say', let alone how it would/should say it, was probably only decided a few days ago.

The '50 page document overnight' related to myself. This SI is only just over 3 pages long (including the titles and 'Explanatory Notes') - but that doesn't alter the generality of what I've written above.

Kind Regards, John

 

[boringoldcodger]

Living down to my moniker: BBC news website says:
The latest instructions to officers from the College of Policing for England and Wales says: "Officers should only enforce the Health Protection Regulations - government guidance is not enforceable, for example two-metre distancing, avoiding public transport or the wearing of face coverings in enclosed spaces."

Link:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52106843

I imagine they're trying to say that you can pass by other people as long as you keep 2 metres apart. But you can only be with one other person for a noticeable amount of time and even then you must keep to the 2 metres. My (doubtless imperfect) memory is that, before lockdown, there was some advice about not being within 2 metres of another person for more than 15 (?) minutes.

 

[JohnW2]

Living down to my moniker: BBC news website says:
The latest instructions to officers from the College of Policing for England and Wales says: "Officers should only enforce the Health Protection Regulations - government guidance is not enforceable, for example two-metre distancing, avoiding public transport or the wearing of face coverings in enclosed spaces."

That may well be true but, as I illustrated yesterday, it seems that most of the published 'guidelines' are being rapidly turned into law by the issuing of Statutory Instruments (that have the effect of modifying the initial legislation).

In specific reference to enforcement/policing, one of the things changed by the SI which came into force on Wednesday (a bit of which I posted) was an increase in the fines that can be applied ....

...(4) In regulation 10— (a) in paragraph (6), for “£60” substitute “£100”; (b) in paragraph (7)— (i) in sub-paragraph (a), for “£30”, substitute “£50”; (ii) in sub-paragraph (b)(ii)— (aa) in sub-paragraph (aa), for “£120” substitute “£200”; (bb) for sub-paragraph (bb), substitute— “(bb) in the case of the third fixed penalty notice received, £400; (cc) in the case of the fourth fixed penalty notice received, £800; (dd) in the case of the fifth fixed penalty notice received, £1,600; (ee) in the case of the sixth and subsequent fixed penalty notices, £3,200.”.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

GasSafe man told me they that they can only connect onto the output terminal of an existing FSU, not install a new one or even unscrew it - by law.

In that case, you might politely ask him, if he is so wildly "inaccurate" in his understanding of quite simple laws/regulations, why on earth might you consider him capable of having understanding of the much more complicated laws on "gas stuff" Then go on to suggest that since he's now admitted that he is not competent to be working on gas stuff, you'd like him to grab his tools and leave - but before he goes, would he mind calling his boss to arrange to have a competent technician sent out.

Basically, if he is competent to be creating a circuit from the FCU onwards, then he should be competent (perhaps with a little reading) to work upstream of it.

I am unaware of any such law.

You wouldn't be because, as already said, there isn't one.

The politicians certainly have my sympathies in this situation, since they are constantly finding themselves between great piles of rocks and great piles of hard places - and, on balance, I reckon they're doing a pretty good job (even if there are some things 'which don't make sense') under the circumstances.

I agree - very big rock and very big hard place.
IMO we're overdue for someone (probably Boris) to simply come out and discuss the elephant in the room - if we don't get the economy running again quickly, that will cause deaths (perhaps more than the coronavirus itself) going forward. We already know that suicides are up, domestic violence is up, child neglect/violence is up, routine medical treatments are down, etc, etc. At the moment, IMO there's too much pandering to the "but we must keep up the lockdown because ..." brigade - just look at all the wailing over the relatively minor relaxation of the rules the other week. Are we already past the point where the general loss in life expectancy due to the worse economic conditions actually outweigh the possible losses from relaxing the rules somewhat quicker than they are being ? hard one to call, and people far more au-fait with the maths involved have already been looking at that.
I know my mother is going nuts - and she at least gets to see people every day (district nurse and carers), and we setup video chats with the family. I'm pretty certain that she'd take the attitude that she'd rather live a shorter but happy life than a long and miserable one - i.e. she'd rather take her chances than stay stuck at home - and I think my brothers and I would be somewhat resigned to that if she did catch it. As it is, the other week I took her to a hospital appointment, and on the way back called in at the local Booths - doing my best to stop her going up to everyone for a chat. Just one short shopping trip really made a big difference to her outlook - raised her spirits for a couple of days.