does any1 know to what extent i need to go to when completing the electrical installation certificate after changing a consumer unit?...it seems a little extreme to do all the r1 + r2 and everything!!..what test do i have to carry out in other words?
changing a consumer unit
- Thread starter dyland
- Start date
Sponsored Links
- Joined
- 1 Jan 2009
- Messages
- 254
- Reaction score
- 2
- Country
seems a little extreme until you miss that fault you put on when you crushed a cable or pinched one in a backbox and now the installation is either in a dangerous state or has the rcd tripping everytime you try to turn the power on.
Seems a little extreme until you connect up a ring circuit that has been broken at some time.
You then turn on the kitchen appliances and the single cable overheats and catches fire.
Seems a little extreme until you are cutting the lawn with your electric mower and run over the cable. Your last thought will be "if only I had tested the RCDs on the consumer unit that I installed".
You then turn on the kitchen appliances and the single cable overheats and catches fire.
Seems a little extreme until you are cutting the lawn with your electric mower and run over the cable. Your last thought will be "if only I had tested the RCDs on the consumer unit that I installed".
Sponsored Links
- Joined
- 27 Jan 2008
- Messages
- 23,722
- Reaction score
- 2,675
- Location
- Llanfair Caereinion, Nr Welshpool
- Country
It is very easy to say with a domestic install every circuit should be tested. How every with an industrial install one has often can’t access all points.
It does not really matter if it’s supply to strong room or to loft area with asbestos it is common to have to change a panel without access to all circuits feed from it.
There is a section one can enter “Extent of installation covered by this Certificate” and once a circuit enters another distribution unit as for example feed to a garage then I would not expect to test any further.
We are however looking for errors we could have introduced and testing we have a ring main would be required, and also that the automatic means of disconnecting the circuit in case of a fault are adequate for the conditions. To do this one would need to see a valid installation or inspection and test certificate. Plus any minor works etc issued since.
So as a rule of thumb I would say where all paperwork is up to date then one can limit the test to first device after consumer unit plus verifying ring mains. However if the paperwork is either missing or outdated then one needs to do a full test in most cases.
There of course will be exceptions and no hard and fast rules can be used. This is why we need to be trained and one can normally see when faults are likely to exist and must adjust the tests accordingly. We are tradesmen and should act as such.
In some cases we will have no options. Members of some trade organisations will be required to do testing over and above what the HSE would require and we must follow the rules of the organisations.
Having submitted my installation certificates to the LABC they raised no objections to entering “Extent of installation covered by this Certificate” and issued a completion certificate. I can’t see how one could take responsibility on any installation certificate for items one did not install. And the fitting of a new consumer unit will have an installation certificate not inspection and test. So to do a full inspection and test will mean two sets of certificates.
This it is personal and one must make ones own mind up, and I would commend those who do a full inspection and test when doing a consumer unit change, and I would think this would be best method, but I would not say we have to do it.
It does not really matter if it’s supply to strong room or to loft area with asbestos it is common to have to change a panel without access to all circuits feed from it.
There is a section one can enter “Extent of installation covered by this Certificate” and once a circuit enters another distribution unit as for example feed to a garage then I would not expect to test any further.
We are however looking for errors we could have introduced and testing we have a ring main would be required, and also that the automatic means of disconnecting the circuit in case of a fault are adequate for the conditions. To do this one would need to see a valid installation or inspection and test certificate. Plus any minor works etc issued since.
So as a rule of thumb I would say where all paperwork is up to date then one can limit the test to first device after consumer unit plus verifying ring mains. However if the paperwork is either missing or outdated then one needs to do a full test in most cases.
There of course will be exceptions and no hard and fast rules can be used. This is why we need to be trained and one can normally see when faults are likely to exist and must adjust the tests accordingly. We are tradesmen and should act as such.
In some cases we will have no options. Members of some trade organisations will be required to do testing over and above what the HSE would require and we must follow the rules of the organisations.
Having submitted my installation certificates to the LABC they raised no objections to entering “Extent of installation covered by this Certificate” and issued a completion certificate. I can’t see how one could take responsibility on any installation certificate for items one did not install. And the fitting of a new consumer unit will have an installation certificate not inspection and test. So to do a full inspection and test will mean two sets of certificates.
This it is personal and one must make ones own mind up, and I would commend those who do a full inspection and test when doing a consumer unit change, and I would think this would be best method, but I would not say we have to do it.
in changing a CU, YOU then become responsible for the ENTIRE installation downstream of it and that responsibility includes ensuring that all circuits are fit for use, and are in a safe working order..
while it's often impractical to test the installation as if it was brand new, you should do as full a test as you can and note the exclusions on the certificate
for example it may be impractical to test the entire lighting circuit due to ELV downlighters being installed everywhere, which would give false readings and IR tests would damage the transformers.. etc.. but you'd test as far as the switches and do the main cables with the switches off etc..
while it's often impractical to test the installation as if it was brand new, you should do as full a test as you can and note the exclusions on the certificate
for example it may be impractical to test the entire lighting circuit due to ELV downlighters being installed everywhere, which would give false readings and IR tests would damage the transformers.. etc.. but you'd test as far as the switches and do the main cables with the switches off etc..
- Joined
- 27 Jan 2008
- Messages
- 23,722
- Reaction score
- 2,675
- Location
- Llanfair Caereinion, Nr Welshpool
- Country
I have seen this quoted many times. But I have also seen it quoted that you can't sign an installation certificate for work you haven't designed and installed. Quite obvious one is wrong. Since I have seen latter in Part P but former only on forums so I would assume the latter to be correct.
If you are saying that one needs a valid inspection and test certificate before the work is started OK. Or if you are saying after the work is complete and the installation certificate has been completed you are required to then do a periodic inspection report as well that does seem OTT and I would have considered that as being a separate job. I would expect Mark Coles to come up with these ideas but not any real electrician!
you disconnect the circuits and do the dead tests, then reconnect to the new CU and do the live tests..
there is not before and after.. it's all during..
there is not before and after.. it's all during..
- Joined
- 11 Jan 2004
- Messages
- 42,786
- Reaction score
- 2,647
- Country
I am of the opinion that when you change a CU, you only sign for the work you have done. In other words, the Consumer Unit change ONLY.
You cannot sign, for example, to say that all wiring is placed in safe zones and other similar things, because you did not do that work. Therefore, there must be "LIMS" on the cert.
I realise certain folk here state you cannot have "LIMS" on an EIC, but how else would they propose a cert is completed?
You cannot sign, for example, to say that all wiring is placed in safe zones and other similar things, because you did not do that work. Therefore, there must be "LIMS" on the cert.
I realise certain folk here state you cannot have "LIMS" on an EIC, but how else would they propose a cert is completed?
http://www.theiet.org/publishing/wiring-regulations/forms/formspdf6.cfm?type=pdf
the forms contained within show that the EIC cert has an area to mark down the "extent of installation covered by this certificate" where you mark down as "replacement of existing CU" then tick the box to the right marked "alteration to existing installation"..
this then shown that the CU was the only part of the installation that you "designed and installed" for when you sign the declaration..
the circuits should still be tested and not connected if they are unsafe or don't meet the required Zs's and such..
the forms contained within show that the EIC cert has an area to mark down the "extent of installation covered by this certificate" where you mark down as "replacement of existing CU" then tick the box to the right marked "alteration to existing installation"..
this then shown that the CU was the only part of the installation that you "designed and installed" for when you sign the declaration..
the circuits should still be tested and not connected if they are unsafe or don't meet the required Zs's and such..
S
sparkyspike
I agree. You need to test all of the circuits. Test continuity, polarity and IR for each circuit, plus RCD tests and Ze/PFC/bonding etc for the rest of the installation.
Any circuits that you choose not to test or fail any tests, should be left disconnected.
Any circuits that you choose not to test or fail any tests, should be left disconnected.
I would have thought that you'd be quite au fait with (2) if you're expecting (1) to go OK...
- Joined
- 3 Apr 2009
- Messages
- 122
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
I find the original question worrying as i'm sure some others do. You need to do R1+R2, insulation resistance, Zs tests on every circuit. You also have to do RCD, PSCC and Ze tests as well. To even consider not doing some of these tests when changing a consumer unit is frankly appalling. Here's a scenario for you. A Zs test will use any earth path present including parallel paths normally giving you a perfect result whereas an R1+R2 test would indicate a high resistance fault which you would know nothing about as you hadn't carried the test out. We do the tests for a reason and corners shouldn't be cut.
S
sparkyspike
Technically you shouldn't be doing individual Zs tests as it will be picked up on your assessment. Test r1+r2, then use Ze to calculate Zs.
The same applies with RCD testing. Don't test the individual circuit, but the RCD itself instead. Apart from measuring the supply loop and RCD units, you shouldn't be testing live at all.
Many electricians use Zs testing as a means for double-checking reconnection after r1+r2 testing and for a quick reference.
The same applies with RCD testing. Don't test the individual circuit, but the RCD itself instead. Apart from measuring the supply loop and RCD units, you shouldn't be testing live at all.
Many electricians use Zs testing as a means for double-checking reconnection after r1+r2 testing and for a quick reference.
DIYnot Local
Staff member
If you need to find a tradesperson to get your job done, please try our local search below, or if you are doing it yourself you can find suppliers local to you.
Select the supplier or trade you require, enter your location to begin your search.
Are you a trade or supplier? You can create your listing free at DIYnot Local
Sponsored Links
