Condensing Boiler Break Down In The Big Freeze? Here's Why.

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I have had endless problems with my Worcester 18/25 Boiler, and you may be interested in my post here..

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Did your central heating break down in the big freeze? Here's why...
By MICHAEL HANLON
Last updated at 10:25 AM on 29th December 2010
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In cold weather, the pipe that takes waste water from the back of the condensing boiler - which isn’t there in a normal boiler - freezes solid, shutting down the system.
Five years ago, New Labour heralded them as the modern, clean and green way to heat your house. As a result, today there are already eight million ‘condensing boilers’ in homes across Britain. In fact, since 2005 it is illegal to fit any other kind.
At the time, John Prescott claimed they would massively reduce your carbon footprint and slash your fuel bills. As a result, every year some 1.2 million old-style ‘dirty’ boilers are scrapped in Britain and replaced by this wondrous new variety.
However, the recent cold snap has revealed a major problem with them. Tens of thousands of people found themselves shivering as their shiny new boilers cut out without warning.
British Gas is understood to have had 60,000 call-outs in Yorkshire alone. And the cost to call out a plumber? It can be between £200 to £300 on a bank holiday. And don’t forget about VAT.
‘We’ve had double the number of call-outs as in the same period last year,’ says Charlie Mullins, MD of Pimlico Plumbers in London, the country’s largest ­independent plumbing company.
‘It is a massive problem. Some customers were ready to move out because their condensing boilers broke. If I had a choice, I’d put in a non-condensing boiler every time.’
It’s all the more infuriating because the problem causing these breakdowns is so simple. In cold weather, the pipe that takes waste water from the back of the condensing boiler - which isn’t there in a normal boiler - freezes solid, shutting down the system and in many cases causing permanent damage.
But this problem is just one of many that have plagued this boiler design since they became popular in the Nineties. Many plumbers consider them to be little more than a multi-billion-pound con-trick.
In a regular boiler, the hot gases produced when the ­methane fuel is burned heat water for your ­radiators, dishwasher, taps and so on. But about 25 per cent of the heat vents out of the exhaust pipe in the form of hot steam and CO2.
In a condensing boiler, a condenser claws back much of the lost heat because as steam condenses into water, it feeds heat back into the system.
This can increase overall efficiency from 75 per cent to as much as 93 per cent, and reduce CO2 emissions - and your bills - by a commensurate amount. That, anyway, is the theory boiler-makers and ­politicians want you to believe.
In 2005, the then-deputy PM John Prescott drew up a masterplan to help Britain meet its CO2 emissions targets, as dictated by the 1997 Kyoto Protocol. This involved a new law ordering that all new and replacement boilers fitted to British homes - some 1.4m annually - must from that date be of the condensing type.


A ‘boiler scrappage’ scheme followed in 2008, which offered people £400 towards the cost of a new condensing boiler if they replaced their old one - even if it was in perfect working order. Boiler manufacturers and plumbing and installation firms could hardly believe their luck.
An estimated eight million homes in Britain made the switch, often encouraged by persistent salesmen who produced an impressive-looking audit offering a seductive assessment of how much money you could save by switching to a new, ‘clean’ boiler.
But even ignoring the freezing pipe problem, it is clear that in most cases it makes no economic sense to scrap an old boiler that is still functioning.
For an average home, replacing even a very inefficient old model with the best new boiler on the market will, at most, save a couple of hundred pounds a year in gas bills.
That sounds good until you realise that at £2,000 for one of the better condensing models, a new one will take at least ten years to pay for itself.
And the problem is that these boilers simply do not last anything like ten years.
‘You might get 20 years out of one of the old ones,’ Charlie Mullins says, ‘but it is more like three to six years out of one of these new ones. In fact, if it goes wrong after four years, you are better off replacing a condensing boiler altogether because of the ­horrendous cost of the parts.
‘On the basis of efficiency, they certainly do not pay for themselves. It makes no sense to take out a working old boiler and replace it with a condensing one.’

If you have an old boiler, provided it is working properly and is serviced regularly, you are almost certainly better off keeping it until it is beyond economic repair.
That’s not something the enthusiastic salesmen will tell you. They also won’t tell you that those touted increases in efficiency are theoretical, often not matched in reality. These boilers rarely operate at ­maximum efficiency anyway.
Explained simply, the water returning from your radiators back to the boiler has to be below 55c for the condenser to condense the steam in the boiler into water. For most homes using standard radiators, this will probably not be the case - the returning water might be as hot as 65c, especially when the radiators are turned up in cold weather.
One impractical ‘fix’ would be to fit oversized radiators, which can warm the room to the same degree despite being slightly cooler.
Another solution would be to fit the latest radiant heating technologies, using pipes embedded in walls and floors. But fitting these hi-tech systems, which are fairly common on the Continent but rare in Britain, would cost thousands of pounds for most homes.
The problems don’t stop there either. The condensed water vapour produced in the new boilers is slightly acidic (as it contains dissolved nitrogen and sulphur oxides), which inevitably causes corrosion of the delicate boiler components and also leads to breakdowns.
So the message is clear: if you have an old boiler, provided it is working properly and is serviced regularly, you are almost certainly better off keeping it until it is beyond economic repair. Parts will be cheaper, it will be less likely to break down and there is no danger of it stalling on the coldest night of the year.
If you’re worried about your carbon footprint, just remember that the touted efficiency savings are theoretical figures and might not reflect reality. In a well-designed, well-insulated new home that incorporates the ­latest heating technology, a condensing boiler might be more efficient.
But most of us do not live in such homes - we have poor insulation and ageing pipes and radiators. Remember, also, that manufacturing each new boiler has a ‘carbon cost’ in itself that must be ‘paid back’ by the new boiler.
There is no doubt that the great switch to condensing boilers was motivated by the best intentions. But that’s small consolation if you find yourself shivering in a freezing house this winter, wondering when the plumber is going to arriv


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...ng-break-big-freeze-Heres-.html#ixzz1CWT9LDtj
 
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Thats very badly written and should not all be thought of as being correct depending on how you interpret it.

Mr Mullins runs a plumbing company but is not gas registered himself. He can also be very rude to people.
 
He can also be very rude to people

Tony it is not just Mr Mullins who is rude, some folk on this forum have a habbit of being rude to posters too.
 
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this article has been discussed before. The person who wrote it doesnt know what they're talking about and neither does charlie mullins. 3-6yrs for a new boiler? Is that what he tells his customers?
In one sentence they're saying its not economical to replace old boilers, but in another sentence its apparently economical to change one thats 3yrs old? muppets.
Good installations don't freeze up, simples.
 
It's not the boiler that freezes up its the poorly designed or installed condensate removal pipe - this topic has been done to death this winter TBH!

as for C. Mullins stating a Steamer is only good for 3-6 years???
dosen't look good for my Remeha then its nearly three years old BUT has not put a foot wrong, nor has the external condensate pipe frozen as it is adequately sized and has an appropriate fall along its length! I'm expecting 15 -20 years out of it ;)
 
Are Condensing Boilers Any Good?....I am not impressed up to now!..

In view of your very valuable opinions I dug out my previous Engineer reports which you might find amusing and/or others might find of interest. (except one).

Boiler installed by R.T. Downs, which is a business in Mold on 25th July 2008.

Following call outs to Worcester because the boiler is down......

6th October 2008. "PCB FUSE BLOWS C/H EXTERNAL WIRED FROST SAT WIRED INCORRECTLY. BOTH NEUTRAL AND EARTH LIVE ON DEMAND.
COLD WEATHER. REMOVED CABLE FROM FUSED SPAR. MUST BE WIRED ONTO PCB FROST TERMINAL IN BOILER.

I had to get R.T. Downs back to fix that.

26th May 2009. " NOZZLE HOLDER SPLIT. CAUSED APPLIANCE TO SOOT UP. CLEANED OUT APPLIANCE AND ORDERED A NEW NOZZLE HOLDER FOR TOMORROW. NB. WILO PUMP FITTED TO BOILER 60/80EH NOZZLE FITTED, REPLACED WITH CORRECT NOZZLE 55/80EH. COULD NOT COMPLETE MEASUREMENTS AS PART REQUIRED".

27th May 2009. "RECALL TO FIT NOZZLE HOLDER. HOLDER SPLIT AT NOZZLE BASE, OVERTIGHTENED, REPLACED ITEM, NOZZLE DAMAGED. REPLACED ITEM.PECELL DAMAGED, REPLACED ITEM.NB. CONDENSATE TRAP NOT FITTED TO SYSTEM. PIPED DIRECTLY TO OUTSIDE DRAIN. ELECTRIC CABLE FROM THERMOSTAT TOO SHORT. SHOULD BE HEAT RESISTANT. WILO PUMP FITTED TO APPLIANCE".

7th January 2009 "CUSTOMER REPORTED NO CH/DHW, NO OIL GETTING TO BOILER, BOILER HAS STRONG SPARK SO CHANGED CONTROL BOX AND SOLENOID AS A PRECAUTIONARY MEASURE, CHECKED OIL NOT GETTING TO BOILER DUE TO FREEZING TEMPS. UNABLE TO TAKE READINGS AS BOILER IS NOT WORKING"

8th January 2009. "THE OIL LINE WAS BLOCKED, UNBLOCKED TO BOILER OK ON THE HT/HW.

And on top of that of course is as per my post of last weeks Engineers reports.

It has to be said though that quite a lot of the problems in respect of my 18/25 have been caused either by the original installation or the call out guys.

Like I said...I do worry about the long term situation with my boiler.

When I had it installed I thought...oooohhhh lovely a brand new Worcester Condensing Boiler........no worries now.

How wrong I have been

P.S. I note that one Engineer commented that a WILO pump is installed in the boiler. Can anyone verify if this is the correct pump for this particular boiler? And if it is not...does it matter?

Saturday 29th January 2011
So then, I received the Engineers reports from Worcester this morning. Perhaps you guys can make more sense of it than me?

Friday 21st January. Replaced parts (7-716-100-098) job type CT01-BDWN.

1. Coil solenoid valve
1. Control box satronic
1. Photocell and flange

Replaced the parts above but the oil pump was stuck to the burner and unabel to replce it booked back in with a new burner.

Labour Charge £0.00P

Saturday 22nd January 2011.

1. Burner Sterling 50

Replaced the burner as oil pump was stuck to it. The line was frozen advised customer to get there installer to fix it.

Labour Charge £0.00P

(All above exactly as written....including spelling).

So, after my complaining with the help of knowledge gained here and another 4 days of cold another Engineer came out on...

Tuesday 25ththanuary 2011.....his report.....:-

Air being drawn into line from poor fittings. Repaired and Comp tests.
Gross Efficiency 92.0

Labour Charge £0.00P....................................END OF REPORTS

All the last Engineer said to me was that there had been air in the line.....he didn't say anything to me about poor fittings.
Perhaps he should have advised me what he meant by that so I could react and get them replaced.

So then....like I say, THREE Engineer visits.....the parts above replaced, including a burner (Well, he was bashing seven kinds of poo out of the other one with a hammer!)

...what a right fiasco from the first engineer which left us without hot water or heating for around 5 days just because of air in the oil line.

If I was that first Engineers Boss.... I don't think I would be a happy chappie!

What I cannot figure out is that he put a brand new burner on....and didn't have any oil to test it with? It makes me want to weep.

But me....I know nothing.

One thing I am sure of....Thank goodness I have a 5 year Guarantee...otherwise I reckon I would be in a right old battle with Worcester over the cotsing of the whole fiasco being charged to me.

In reply to that last set of problems......

1st February 2011

Dear ...........,

Thank you for your correspondence, please allow me to share with you what I have investigated so far.

Our engineer Robert found after investigation there was an issue with the fuel pump and during the replacement process he found the pump was completely seized to the burner. Whilst trying to remove this item some damage was caused to the casting of the whole burner which would have been unable to be repaired. Thus the new burner was ordered and a re visit was booked in for the following day. Having read your original communication I can understand your frustration, but having investigated this I can understand why his actions were so, there was no option but to order the full unit at our cost.

Our engineers only work on our appliances and anything outside these parameters, are not our responsibility. I can understand your points regarding this issue but that is our working practice. Our engineers carry out basic checks on oil supplies and if possible may be able to re establish a supply. In your individual case this was not possible. Robert was able to get some fuel into the Tiger Loop but this was not replenished by the supply pipe which itself indicated a supply issue and not as you mention a boiler issue. If you have had an independent OFTEC engineer rectify your supply I would welcome his findings and if necessary take actions based on his findings.

Finally to address your question regarding the timer on this appliance I can assure you the appliance and timer are operating correctly. This function is so as to react to a hot water demand as the appliance is a combi type boiler it needs to heat the water contained within the shell to a reasonable temperature to supply you with hot water on demand.

I apologise for any inconvenience caused with regard to this matter and hope this addresses the issues you have raised.

Yours Sincerely

Craig Hodson
Area Service Manager
BOSCH Thermotechnology Ltd
Cotswold Way
Warndon
Worcester
WR4 9SW
www.bosch-thermotechnology.co.uk
[email protected] (for service related complaints/enquiries)
[email protected] (to request an engineer)
Tel: 0844 892 3000 (contact centre)
 
That all seems to point all the faults to a very poor quality installation.

I suppose that you chose them because they were the cheapest?

Yet you still seem to blame the boiler!

Tony
 
Its wrong to say good installations dont freeze up there are other outside factors that can affect this namely the main soil pipe freezing up which does happen OR properly insulated pipes even above standard req that go into a soakaway and the ground /chips (around,within) are already frozen solid the condensate cannot get away and thus freezes in trhe pipe as it sits there
 
Its wrong to say good installations dont freeze up there are other outside factors that can affect this namely the main soil pipe freezing up which does happen OR properly insulated pipes even above standard req that go into a soakaway and the ground /chips (around,within) are already frozen solid the condensate cannot get away and thus freezes in trhe pipe as it sits there.

The only way you could assure no frozen wastes is if every waste pipe that condensate was connected to was run within the buildiing and in this country its never going to happen
 
Pot, Kettle , Black:

[Agile Posted: Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:00 pm Post Subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thats very badly written and should not all be thought of as being correct depending on how you interpret it.

Mr Mullins runs a plumbing company but is not gas registered himself. He can also be very rude to people.

* * * * *

Agile Posted: Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:49 am Post Subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That all seems to point all the faults to a very poor quality installation.

I suppose that you chose them because they were the cheapest? Yet you still seem to blame the boiler!
Tony
 
its not that the boilers are bad its the way we run them..

If we installed them as they do in germany (with an outdoor sensor) or in holland with (indoor or out door compensation) we would not be having these issues (apart from the condensate freeze up!)

Its the on-off switching which is 40 year old technology used on boilers that are designed for load modulation...

This is no ones fault other than the people who advise the government who don't appear to understand the benefits of the technology..
 
Alec... the more controlled the boilers, the more condensate there is to freeze... Sadly British homes don't have plant rooms like the Germans have (If they did, then they would have been turned into extra bathrooms or bedrooms such is the madness of the good old British home owner) There are solutions but the customer wants their boiler where the customer wants their boiler and to hell with the installers advise... As said before, my simple solution if the pipe is run outside involves an IP65 frost stat, RCD and a length of self regulating heater tape... Consumption of 18 watts per metre, beats the hell out of a kettle and a pair of ricketty steps
 
It all helps to keep us in a job though!

However, I do believe customrs should have the choice when their boiler needs renewing about wether to go condensing or stay with an old type traditonal boiler.

Servotech,
 
Regardless of where or how the condensate pipe is run, If a so called state of the art boiler ceases to function just because of cold weather, then its surely not fit for purpose.
 

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