Connecting a Single Gas hob to a butane bottle

[bassdrum]

Hi,

I'm looking for some advice.

I'm planning a new kitchen and I want to install a combination of gas and ceramic hobs.

http://www.neff.co.uk/hobs-domino.html

The gas hob has 6.0kW output (which is quite a large flame) and would be run off a 7kg butane bottle.

http://www.norwichcamping.co.uk/7kg-butane-gas-cylinder-refill.html

However I do not have access to mains gas and was hoping to run the gas hob via a butane bottle, permanently attached, stored underneath the hob.

I've seen a few places mention this (mainly french expat sites) - but it does not seem to be a common practice in this country (unsurprisingly).

Is there any reason why this wouldn't work - and I am I asking for trouble on a safety front by doing this? Are there alarms or other safety device that might compliment such an installation?

I would be having the kitchen professionally installed - but want to know if this is possible before approaching a builder for a quote.

-Thanks in advance.

 

[45yearsagasman]

I'd probably be able to hear the bang from here!!! when you come to change the bottle over. I think that the bottles should be fitted outside. LPG engineer will advise of correct installation regulations and there are several.

 

[Boilerman2]

Firstly and Importantly you should not be using Butane, it stops producing gas at 0'C you should use Propane, anything less than 19Kg would be inconvenient due to expected gas usage etc.

Secondly Bottles should be installed outside and a gas supply installed by a LPG registered Gas Installer, I personally would fit a 2 pack auto changeover system in case your bottle runs out halfway through cooking sunday lunch!! in this case a standby bottle would automatically take over!

 

[holty]

seems theres a misunderstanding with the public when it comes to lpg.its probably twice as dangerous as natural gas.so heres my advice.get an rgi in that is certified in lpg.and not a builder.i work alot on lpg. and if you knew what could happen in a small gas leak youll be surprised.

 

[holty]

Firstly and Importantly you should not be using Butane, it stops producing gas at 0'C you should use Propane, anything less than 19Kg would be inconvenient due to expected gas usage etc.

good point. as it can actually freeze.especially on a rapid offtake.

 

[bassdrum]

Thanks for the reply(s).

From what I understand it is acceptable to use butane indoors (but not outdoors, due to the freezing point as you alluded to).

The hob will be used infrequently - and there will be two ceramic hobs that will be used most of the time. The ovens will also be electric.

For this reason, I figured the smaller bottle would be O.K as I would be using the gas infrequently.

I know this is not a common setup - and that most LPG cookers will use propane sited outside - with a changeover system.

Having said all that - is there anything inherently wrong with using a butane bottle indoors.

@holty - you say it is twice as dangerous as natural gas, but to me this still isn't very dangerous? Surely with the number of people using natural gas - all accidents/faulty equipment are to do with poor installation rather than random chance. What is it about Butane that should cause me to fear?

This page on the Calor gas website mentions using Butane (11.34kg yellow cylinder) with an indoor hob.

http://www.calorgasni.com/calor-and-your-business/which-gas/

Edit: also this on the Candy (manufacturer) website.
http://service.candy-domestic.co.uk/fault-finder/uplimages/gas-flame.jpg

I'm not asking your opinion and then disagreeing with you because it's not what I want to hear (although it isn't what I want to hear )- I'm just asking a professionals opinion and trying to understand your responses.

-Thanks again.

 

[holty]

I'm not asking your opinion and then disagreeing with you because it's not what I want to hear (although it isn't what I want to hear icon_smile.gif)- I'm just asking a professionals opinion and trying to understand your responses.

really seems like you are.i give free advice on what i know and work on.if you dont like it then.feel free to stick whatever you think is right cos you looked it up on the internet.while your at it look up tightness testing on dwellings for lpg.how you do it what to look for.what materials to use etc.i seriously dont know why i bother with the general forum

 

[holty]

@holty - you say it is twice as dangerous as natural gas, but to me this still isn't very dangerous?

effin idiot

 

[bassdrum]

Hi Holty.

Thanks for your reply. I'm not an idiot - I just fail to see how quantifying something as twice as dangerous as something else means anything?

Surely a properly fitted natural gas installation is not dangerous. If butane is twice as dangerous as this, then it is still not dangerous?

That's all I was asking.

trying to understand your responses.

Ranting and raving at me will not help me to understand.

Thanks for your advice.

 

[holty]

ok i appologise for calling you an idiot.but i rant and rave cos you need a good understanding of lpg.and the way you come across.is that your taking this task of fitting this yourself.which really comes back to the first point of this message.i will not appologise calling you an idiot if you intend to fit lpg without an lpg rgi making sure its safe.

 

[bassdrum]

No problem.

I wouldn't dream of fitting this myself, I can hardly put up a shelf.
I wasn't trying to say that gas is not dangerous - and I'm aware that the increased rate of expansion of gas under pressure during a leak makes the possibility of explosions very real.

I can see why you would be of the belief that I intend to fit this myself and why that would make you

I also read the board FAQ before I posted so If I came across as an eager
diyer then forgive me.

I know that it is possible to connect butane to the hob and make it work.
What I should have asked is - is it SAFE to have this setup? Would a certified gas engineer even entertain this prospect or would he refuse to do the work on safety grounds? And if so - is it possible to point me in the right direction to understand why this is the case - I'm willing to read - I don't need to be spoonfed, but I'm finding i hard to find information on this subject.

I managed to find a document name:


Code of practice for domestic butane- and propane-gas-burning installations. Installations at permanent dwellings, residential park homes and commercial premises, with installation pipework sizes not exceeding DN 25 for steel and DN 28 for corrugated stainless steel or copper

The first part of which

domestic butane- and propane-gas-burning installations

Seems interesting - clearly this document would be too technical for me (at cost over £100) - but it does seem to suggest that installing butane permanently indoors could be safe. Would this only be for non cooking applications?

I guess it isn't enough to be told 'no', I'm curious to know the reason. It's just my nature.

 

[TicklyT]

Many applications use butane or propane indoors, but very few store the bottled gas 'indoors'. About the only exception that comes to mind are boats, which are equipped with a range of gas detectors in bilges etc. etc. to raise the alarm in case of any leaks.

The gases are heavier than air, so any leaks tend to 'pool' at or below floor level, unlike natural gas, which is lighter than air.

Portable gas heaters avoid the regulations by being portable appliances, but the recommendation is still to store them in a well ventilated areas, away from living spaces when not in use.

Even touring caravans locate the gas bottles 'outdoors', seperate from the living compartment.

I would put money on a fixed indoor bottled gas installation invalidating any home insurance policies.

I expect the French have similar rules (the French have rules for everything), but the average frenchman just dismisses them all with a gallic shrug without even disturbing the Gauloise in the corner of his mouth, particularly if it means he can then get one up on the British!

 

[Boilerman2]

Although the OP has posted asking for advice, he seem unable to take the advice given as far as I am aware the only appliances that can be fueled by internal bottles are those that are designed to have the bottle contained within the appliance (mobile cabinet heaters for example) if the OP knows best then could he just do whatever he is intendiong to do, without bothering to ask for proffesional advice - onlyu to argue with the advice recieved in GOOD FAITH!!

 

[bassdrum]

@TicklyT

Thanks for posting - you confirm what I already suspected - that these applications are temporary and that the gas wouldn't be stored permanently...

I also found this which makes for fairly grim reading....
http://www.springerlink.com/content/q12546417459148v/

My research suggests that using bottled gas indoors in France is legal because it doesn't need to be certified - perhaps why it is common over there - and why I'm being treated like a Maniac for even suggesting it over here...

As I've already said - If I cant find a pro to do it for me - I'll need to think of something else.


@Boilerman

I don't think you can have read the whole thread because I've already stated that the work would need to be carried out by a professional. If I can't find a registered professional who will do it - then It won't be getting done. If I didn't care about your advice, I wouldn't be asking for it.

http://www10.fr.shopping.com/xPO-Cuisinieres-Faure-BGL-802

This cooker has space inside it for a gas bottle - and as you shouldn't store propane indoors - I presume this is cooker runs on Butane - hence why I've been asking about this possibility. I figured if major supermarkets in France + the candy website and the Calor gas website all make reference to running a hob from a butane bottle - there might be a way to make it happen. I figured that that as butane is not recommended to be stored outdoors - that they would have to be stored indoors. I guess that such installations must be making reference to caravans and other situations where the gas is only stored temporarily indoors, and moved elsewhere when not in use.

I'm not a Moron and I take your advice in the spirit it is given.
Thanks again for your post

 

[wsts]

Surely a properly fitted natural gas installation is not dangerous. If butane is twice as dangerous as this, then it is still not dangerous?

LPG is twice as dangerous than nat gas maybe even more, take these facts into account, 1 litre LPG = 246 litres gas approx, if you have a fire at home with nat gas the supply can be turned off, but with an internal butane bottle you could be saying goodbye to the house and maybe the neighbours houses too, if you have a leak into a cellar as the gas is heavier than air believe it or not you can drown if theres a leak escapes into it, you may not be able to see or touch it but it can drown you the same as water...... which is why you need an lpg RGI to asses a job properly.