Consumer unit to replace old fuse box.

The properties I purchased 24 - 22 years ago have completely and utterly paid for themselves, Initially I had to put down 20% or 25% deposits on 25 year Mortgages. All of them were paid off and value of deposits recovered by the rent income within 12 years. That means any sale now is pure profit and even the 40% CG tax (if it is still 40%) cannot create any debt. Obviously this latest property is start from afresh but the whole portfolio will cover it with ease.

It suddenly feels very strange to think my BTL mortgages were originally due to complete from next year.

As it happens I have a little gold, I started buying Kruggerands not long after starting work 1972 then later one ounce bars, IIRC the first was £45 and last £260, and stopped buying and sold some when I purchased my first house 1983. I have about 10, last I looked value was ~£1200 so not an amazing amount.
 
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The Proff - a lecturer as he was until recent years pointed out to me the relative benefits of gold as an investment compared to inflation in all of the many ways you can measure it. He did assure me that gold was the best option overall by quite a big margin and it was folly to have unlinked our currencies from the gold standard. John, you might be be correct about how long ago that unlinking actually was, I had assumed it was nearer to todays date but I could well be off target on that one. Perhaps I misunderstood that bit but I do understand that this lecturer in economics was comparing how we are doing these days in comparison to fairly recent and not so recent times. Obviously the actual science of it is way above my head as my "expertise" is how electrons might work ;)
 
Unfortunately I think your Proff friend is "on the money", Fiat currencies have been tried many times over history & they always fail for various reasons including the temptation for whoever is in charge to just print more money whenever it suits. There's a very good series on Youtube called Brokenomics that lays it all out for the non-economists... but it is pretty frightening to know how badly things are heading TBH so you may be happier just not knowing. :LOL:
 
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The Proff - a lecturer as he was until recent years pointed out to me the relative benefits of gold as an investment compared to inflation in all of the many ways you can measure it. He did assure me that gold was the best option overall by quite a big margin ....
I'm certainly no expert, and I'm sure that gold probably always has been a pretty good investment - but I don't know (without looking) exactly how it compares (or has compared) with alternatives and, as I keep saying, it is probably not a type of investment than many 'ordinary people' would consider.
.... and it was folly to have unlinked our currencies from the gold standard. John, you might be be correct about how long ago that unlinking actually was, I had assumed it was nearer to todays date but I could well be off target on that one.
According to the Royal Mint (Click Here), the UK abandoned the gold standard in 1931, the US in 1971 and, by 2013, there were no countries in the world that still used it - so I think I was right in what I said (that any changes in recent decades could not be explained by moving from the gold standard)
Perhaps I misunderstood that bit but I do understand that this lecturer in economics was comparing how we are doing these days in comparison to fairly recent and not so recent times. Obviously the actual science of it is way above my head as my "expertise" is how electrons might work ;)
I'm not sure that much of this qualifies as 'science' (other than describing/quantifying what has actually happened in the past), since it's all far too dependent on politics and also sorts of other factors.

As I understand it (perhaps wrongly!) ... as I alluded to, one of the complicating factors in relation to what we've been discussing is that of exchange rates, given that the price of gold is seemingly invariably established in US$. That means that the value of investing in gold in some currency other that USD can be very different from the change in the cost/value of gold (in USD).

As things have been, if the price (in USD) of gold had not changed at all in the past 50 years, someone who 'invested' GBP in gold in 1973 would today have actually made a loss by the time the proceeds of selling the gold were converted back to GBP. Conversely, had the GBP become much stronger (relative to USD) during that 50 years, one would end up with an appreciable 'profit' (in GBP) by today, even if the 'price of gold' (in USD) had not changed. However, in both those cases the gold is an irrelevance to the profit/loss (in GBP) - the situation would be exaxctly the same if one had simply used GBP to buy USD in 1973 and then converted them back to GBP in 2023.

Of course, the value of gold does change (almost invariably rises over time), but the amount of that rise that can be enjoyed by those who invest in it with currencies other than USD will seemingly vary according to changes in the conversion rate (to USD) during the period of the investment.

Kind Regards, John
 
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The properties I purchased 24 - 22 years ago have completely and utterly paid for themselves, Initially I had to put down 20% or 25% deposits on 25 year Mortgages. All of them were paid off and value of deposits recovered by the rent income within 12 years. That means any sale now is pure profit and even the 40% CG tax (if it is still 40%) cannot create any debt.
Not a 'debt' in the sense of negative money/equity, but I don't think that's really the relevant consideration.

What you need to consider is the comparison with the situation if you had not bought the properties but, instead, had invested all the amounts you paid in deposits and mortgage repayments (including the substantial part of the latter represented by interest charges) over the 12 years in something else (perhaps even gold!).

As I've said, I personally believe that (long-term) investment in property is usually going to be 'better' (result in more return) than almost all other investment options (other than very 'speculative'/'risky' ones, which could go totally pear-shaped), but, as above, I don't think one can support that belief in the manner you have tried above.
.... even the 40% CG tax (if it is still 40%)
I think you're probably being a bit pessimistic there,. If I understand correctly, if you pay higher (or 'additional') rate tax, it's currently 28% for residential property, and 20% for anything else (presumably including gold!), potentially less than that if you only pay basic rate tax (which is pretty unlikely).

Kind Regards, John
 
According to the Royal Mint (Click Here), the UK abandoned the gold standard in 1931, the US in 1971 and, by 2013, there were no countries in the world that still used it - so I think I was right in what I said (that any changes in recent decades could not be explained by moving from the gold standard)

These things don't happen overnight & unfortunately it is a bubble that has been expanding since way back then & will most likely burst eventually (although I hope not). Check out how much our (& every other western country) debt is growing & the interest we pay on it vs our economic growth. Thats is why you need a currency pegged to something that cannot just be messed up by human incompetence/greed if you want it to last long term as all Fiat currencies fail eventually.

I think you're probably being a bit pessimistic there,. If I understand correctly, if you pay higher (or 'additional') rate tax, it's currently 28% for residential property, and 20% for anything else (presumably including gold!), potentially less than that if you only pay basic rate tax (which is pretty unlikely).

I stand to be corrected but I believe as long as your gold is in legal tender such as Sovereigns it's Tax free.
 
These things don't happen overnight & unfortunately it is a bubble that has been expanding since way back then & will most likely burst eventually (although I hope not). Check out how much our (& every other western country) debt is growing & the interest we pay on it vs our economic growth.
All true, but ....
Thats is why you need a currency pegged to something that cannot just be messed up by human incompetence/greed if you want it to last long term as all Fiat currencies fail eventually.
... are any currencies any longer 'pegged' to anything? As I said, if the Royal Mint is telling the truth, there no longer are any currencies, anywhere in the world, which are 'pegged' to gold.
I stand to be corrected but I believe as long as your gold is in legal tender such as Sovereigns it's Tax free.
That is true, exempt from both VAT and CGT - although it would obviously only be a particularly crazy person who used such coins as 'legal tender'!

However, the whole business is incredibly 'abstract', since, although made of gold (or silver), all one can legally do with them is 'pass them from person to person' (with a 'notional value' on each 'passing') - since, under the UK Coinage Act 1971, it is illegal to melt British legal tender. Their increasing value is therefore really only related to (essentially 'arbitrary' - i.e. what someone is prepared to pay) "Collector value" and, unless someone is contemplating breaking that law, there's no real reason why the value of a gold (legal tender) coin should be related to "the cost of gold".

Having said that, I'm not sure (because I haven't looked!) how close the 'Collector value' of such items compares with what the gold content would be worth if one could legally melt it.

Kind Regards, John
 
Not a 'debt' in the sense of negative money/equity, but I don't think that's really the relevant consideration.

What you need to consider is the comparison with the situation if you had not bought the properties but, instead, had invested all the amounts you paid in deposits and mortgage repayments (including the substantial part of the latter represented by interest charges) over the 12 years in something else (perhaps even gold!).

As I've said, I personally believe that (long-term) investment in property is usually going to be 'better' (result in more return) than almost all other investment options (other than very 'speculative'/'risky' ones, which could go totally pear-shaped), but, as above, I don't think one can support that belief in the manner you have tried above.
According to my accounts for my BTLs starting with the first holding deposit and included hopefully every expense including the 40p/mile for visits and an apportion of things like postage, phone bills etc, the amount sitting in 'the bank' after purchasing this current property is approximately 1200% of the all of the original deposits and since paying off the mortgages and 'retiring' it's paying me twice as much as the value of the private pension for which I have had to pay a sum similar to the deposits.

Effectively my initial outlays were a loan to my BTL portfolio and it has repayed them, in the mean time it's paying me a pension and still filling the 'bank account', from that I've just purchased another and there remains enough to purchase another 3-4 properties of that value. If I were to add the current value of the properties to the 'bank' the value is more like 2000% of the deposits. This is over 24 years.
In contrast my buying gold started 50 (to 40) years ago and averaged £150/anum which is now worth ~£15K (based on £1500/oz) so 1000% increase over 45 years average... But I have had to pay the gold money out and it has not been repayed so the return is more like 900%.
If I'd purchased all 10oz at £45 50 years ago (my pay then was £12.66p/week ~£650/anum) it would be ~ 3000% over 50years.
I think you're probably being a bit pessimistic there,. If I understand correctly, if you pay higher (or 'additional') rate tax, it's currently 28% for residential property, and 20% for anything else (presumably including gold!), potentially less than that if you only pay basic rate tax (which is pretty unlikely).

Kind Regards, John
Oh brilliant, much better than I thought. When I looked into it CG tax was the same rate as income tax and I was on the higher rate.

I also have shares in ~10 companies; 2 are very volatile (housing developers) but overall have done exceptionally well, hindsight is a wonderful thing, if I'd have purchased 20 times as much I'd have been a millionaire for the last 10+ years. All the rest generally tick along paying a modest divi.
 
According to my accounts for my BTLs starting with the first holding deposit and included hopefully every expense including the 40p/mile for visits and an apportion of things like postage, phone bills etc, the amount sitting in 'the bank' after purchasing this current property is approximately 1200% of the all of the original deposits and since paying off the mortgages and 'retiring' it's paying me twice as much as the value of the private pension for which I have had to pay a sum similar to the deposits.
As I keep saying (in relation to 'investing in property'), you're essentially "preaching to the converted" as far as I am concerned, but I still think that you probably are not looking at exactly the right comparisons to support the view.

I would say that, to address ebee's point, the appropriate comparison would consider the situation if all the money you had spent on deposits and mortgage repayments (plus 'expenses' etc.) had, instead, been invested in something else (gold or whatever) - and then to compare what your assets and income would have been today in comparison with what they now actually are.

Oh brilliant, much better than I thought. When I looked into it CG tax was the same rate as income tax and I was on the higher rate.
Hang onto the properties for the rest of your life and (for those who inherit them from you) the 'CGT clock' will be reset to zero, at the value of the properties when they are inherited.

Kind Regards, John
 
The Proff - a lecturer as he was until recent years pointed out to me the relative benefits of gold as an investment compared to inflation in all of the many ways you can measure it.
Whilst recently replying to SUNRAY, I realised that I had forgotten to mention another very important point in my earlier replies to you. It may be obvious to you (and everyone), but maybe some haven't thought of this ...

.... when comparing investment in gold (or any other 'commodity'/objects) with investment in property (which one rents out), one clearly should not just look at the increases in value of the gold (or whatever) and increase in value of property over time. With gold or any other commodity/object, the only financial gain is the increase in capital value of that asset over time. When one invests in property, in addition to that one also has rental income throughout the period of the investment - not only that, but we can progressively re-invest that rental income.

To give an example (assuming my spreadsheet is telling the truth!) :

Imagine that one has £100,000 (nice round figure!) in cash (to avoid complication of deposits and mortgage repayments) to invest. Pulling vaguely credible numbers out of the air for illustration, assume that (in the long-term) the value of the property rises at a constant 5% per year, that one gets an annual rental income of 5% of the current value per year and that one invests those rental income recipts (in a bank/whatever) at an interest rate of 3% p.a. (compound).

With those figures, after 25 years, the property would be worth £322,510 and the accumulated rental income (with compound interest) would be £323,144 (co-incidentally almost identical!) - hence a total 'wealth' of £645,654(i.e.an 'increase in wealth' of £645,654 - £100,000 = £545,654)

With investment in gold (or whatever) the 'increase in wealth' would just be the increase in value of the commodity of the period of the investment. Hence, using the above figures, over a period of 25 years the increase in the value of gold would have been almost exactly double the increase in the value of property to provide as much 'increase in wealth' as would the property - and that's assuming no 'adverse' changes in exchange rates (in the case of gold) during the period of the investment.

Kind Regards, John
 
As John eludes to. There are many things to consider when making such comparisons, you really need to be an accountant or lecturer in economics or some such and not purely a mere mortal such as I.

Actually a few years back I did take our County Council accountants to task over what they`d charged my parents for care home charges, my parents ended up with a few hundred pounds refunded which was quite a lot in their eyes. In simple terms my opinion was they had overcomplicated the rates etc to baffle themselves whereas a simple electrician could see "it do not seem right" . Couldn`t see the wood for the trees.

Again (back in the early 70s) I had a disagreement with an accountant over the merits of mortgage rate less married tax relief against savings rates of interest.
The point I was making that the accountant ignored was that when calculating like for like was the fact that, back then, interest rates on one was expressed over the whole 12 month period per year whereas the other was a headline rate that ignored the fact that on "average" you had only borrowed for about half a year not the full 12 months (actually nearer 6.5 months of the year if I remember correctly) .
Nowadays, of course, most of us are familiar with terms APR and more latterly AER but these were much unheard of back then.

So experts, in any field, are not completely immune to getting things wrong, us mere mortals (the great unwashed) even more so.
 
As John eludes to. There are many things to consider when making such comparisons, you really need to be an accountant or lecturer in economics or some such and not purely a mere mortal such as I.
I think you probably underestimate yourself. One doesn't need to be an accountant or lecturer, since it's all very simple arithmetic - but one does need the ability ('common sense'?) to think of all the factors which are relevant, and therefore have to be fed into that arithmetic. ... and, of course, even some economists or academics may not have considered all thee factors!

For example, moving to SUNRAY's position, as I've been trying to explain to him, in comparison with the figures I posted yesterday, the goalposts move a long way if, instead of have £100,000 in cash to invest, one takes out a mortgage to buy a property (essentially 'investing a loan').

As my figures illustrated (with the assumptions I used), if one has £100,000 cash to invest in a house one is going to rent out, then after 25 years, one's 'wealth' will have risen to some £645,654, representing a gain of about £546k relative to one's initial £100k cash investment.

However, if, per SUNRAY in order to buy the £100k property, one has forked out a £20k deposit and then take out a 25 year BTL mortgage on the remaining £80k (and let that mortgage run for its full 25 years) then if one works with a mortgage interest rate of 4.5% (probably not unreasonable in comparison with most of the past few decades), he would have paid out about £133k in repayments which plus the £20k deposit would amount to total 'losses' of about £153k. His 'gain' over the 25 years would thus have reduced from about £546k (had he invested cash) to about £393k - which if you look at it (not totally appropriately) as 'average gain per year', would represent an average gain of about £15,720 per year over the 25 years. That's still not at all bad, but it will obviously compares a lot less favourably with investment in, say, gold than would be the case had the property been bought for cash.

In fact, essentially the same would be true of investment in gold if, rather than buying the gold with cash, one took at a loan to finance purchase of the gold.

So I guess the question to ask your economics professor would have been whether he was thinking about investing 'spare cash' or whether he was thinking of the situation (as with BTL mortgages) in which one was 'investing' money which one had had to borrow (hence repay, with a lot of interest).

Kind Regards, John
 
I think you probably underestimate yourself. One doesn't need to be an accountant or lecturer, since it's all very simple arithmetic - but one does need the ability ('common sense'?) to think of all the factors which are relevant, and therefore have to be fed into that arithmetic. ... and, of course, even some economists or academics may not have considered all thee factors!

For example, moving to SUNRAY's position, as I've been trying to explain to him, in comparison with the figures I posted yesterday, the goalposts move a long way if, instead of have £100,000 in cash to invest, one takes out a mortgage to buy a property (essentially 'investing a loan').

As my figures illustrated (with the assumptions I used), if one has £100,000 cash to invest in a house one is going to rent out, then after 25 years, one's 'wealth' will have risen to some £645,654, representing a gain of about £546k relative to one's initial £100k cash investment.

However, if, per SUNRAY in order to buy the £100k property, one has forked out a £20k deposit and then take out a 25 year BTL mortgage on the remaining £80k (and let that mortgage run for its full 25 years) then if one works with a mortgage interest rate of 4.5% (probably not unreasonable in comparison with most of the past few decades), he would have paid out about £133k in repayments which plus the £20k deposit would amount to total 'losses' of about £153k. His 'gain' over the 25 years would thus have reduced from about £546k (had he invested cash) to about £393k - which if you look at it (not totally appropriately) as 'average gain per year', would represent an average gain of about £15,720 per year over the 25 years. That's still not at all bad, but it will obviously compares a lot less favourably with investment in, say, gold than would be the case had the property been bought for cash.

In fact, essentially the same would be true of investment in gold if, rather than buying the gold with cash, one took at a loan to finance purchase of the gold.

So I guess the question to ask your economics professor would have been whether he was thinking about investing 'spare cash' or whether he was thinking of the situation (as with BTL mortgages) in which one was 'investing' money which one had had to borrow (hence repay, with a lot of interest).

Kind Regards, John
Using your figures (which are way over the actual values):
I've had a very quick flick through my accounts and this quick precis is based mostly on the dates of mortgate settlement.
I opened a bank account and deposited 25K from 'savings'.
I invested 20K for deposit and let's say 5K for purchase and general start-up costs eg solicitors, decorating etc
Borrowed 80K interest only.
1-2 years later I made a similar investment but now the purchase price was 25% higher So I put in 25K + 5K in 'the bank', borrowed 100K interest only.
Another year later another property but 60% higher (a better property) so I put in say 25K, and the other half was already in 'the bank' borrowed 120K repayment.

The rent coming in was way more than mortgage repayments, aided by dropping interest rates and increasing rents I paid as much off the mortgages as I could, especially first and third (best option for T&Cs). Over paying an interest only loan pays off the capital and hence the interest drops

By 9 years the 1st loan and capital was paid off and deeds sent to me.
By 11 the years the 3rd loan was paid off and deeds sent to me.
Then dumping profit into 2nd mortgage (paying £1600 where £120 was due) cleared it by 13 years. (<11 years of loan).
For info I paid the last 4K over phone with credit card to clear the debt in a hurry as a time limited offer was in place to extend the lease, admin cost by mortgage company for it was going to be £500+VAT and subject to delaying the process. Solicitors cost reduced by from £300 to £100+VAT.

Moving to 24 years, spending ~560K on this latest property leaves 1200K in 'the bank'. So enough to by 2 more and not the 3-4 I estimated.

Current value of properties ~2000K meaning my investment of 80K and relatively little labour time has yielded 3200K (2600K allowing for CGT)

As mentioned these figures are way over the true amounts but I've left them at your starting point and roughly at the same ratio, apart from those real figures in red.

I don't see any particular reason why this latest property should behave any differently.
 
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