Correct cable?

[ebee]

Indeed.
A few years back I did regs course and exam, 16th edition had just surfaced and the copies of this new edition were extremely difficult to come by.
We had an absolutely excellent tutor who took us stage by stage thru the concepts and we all had an understanding of the regs thanks to him.
He was quite a legend and the course was cheap because the college had got a grant for it.
It was a fraction of the cost of an IET run course.
We had a very high pass rate thanks to his teaching methodology.

I only did the course as an interest of how I might compare with my peers.

Years later, Part P came in and my exam passes stood me in good stead.

Roll forwards a few years and I needed to retake the regs course and full exam,
new college buildings, more tutors, all very technical.
The price had shot up.
But the teaching methods were completely different.
In my opinion it had become a course on how to pass the exam and not so much of understanding all the regs.

Ref "the infamous BAS", yes he was very well read and had a superb understanding of electrics re regs etc. He never claimed to be an electrician.
His delivery was sometimes seen as abrupt, he did not take prisoners, he spoke as he found. that made him infamous.
I think I only disagreed with him openly twice and one of those I changed my mind and came around to his way of thinking.
I can only remember one more time I disagreed with but I "kept my powder dry" on that one (or two or three possibly)
Technically he was pretty good and he went up against electricians sometimes and yes, some of them he ran rings around them. It was his method of delivery that caused friction rather than the content of his knowledge.
Somebody once told me that BAS used to be a lumberjack in the Sahara Forest - Look what a cracking job he made of that one!

There have been times when I`ve met some people, in all walks of life not just electrics, and they have masses of qualifications but I sometimes think they have a bit of a lack of understanding. Sometimes I find some people with fewer, if any, qualifications who actually have a better understanding of things.

 

[SUNRAY]

I have dealt with wires and pliers (as my family describe it) my whole life, I recall going out with dad in my pushchair with a bag of tools etc and helping him and often getting my thinner arms in places he couldn't etc. Worked for BT for 20+ years then into AV

Finally 2002 into control, mostly manufacturing control panels for building management ie heating ventilation etc. for which I was often working on big panels 2m high and anything up to say 10m long. BUT no electrical qualifications. Many times I'd manufacture a panel, deliver it to site and mount it - on a wall or the floor but then not be allowed to wire it up due to lack of qualifications. Days, weeks or months later I'd get the call complaining the panel had faults and go to site to find (usually) the panel worked as designed and the fault was the incorrect way the 'qualified' electricians had wired it up and quite often they would arrogantly refuse to accept they had got it wrong (usually those who wear a baseball cap and especially when worn backwards). Classic things being star-delta motors and motorised curtain/blind/damper etc. which are far more complicated than the 2 week course at the local school where they were taught how to pass an exam.
I decided to take the 16th exam and signed up at the local college for a 12 week evening class. TBH we spent 2 evenings learning how to design a circuit (it really should have been one but far too many of the students struggled with the maths {and I'm being very polite}) the other 9 evenings (do the maths) were learning how to look the answers up in the book and OSG. The frightening thing being the people who failed were generally the 'qualified electricians' doing an upgrade.

Now some perspective here: I'm not slagging off electricians, qualified or not, as with most subjects it's the bad ones which are noticed and the good ones get on with it and go unseen. I've worked with them all and quickly remember who I'd like to work with and those I refuse point blank. The vast proportion of my work has always been commercial and house bashers (Not a criticism) hopefully soon get wedeled out. I've been on many teams where my presence has been requested from the pool over others who are qualified. I've installed and otherwise worked on: Circuits rated at hundreds of amps - installed 1MW 11KV transformers and the switchgear that goes with them - 100KVA temporary generators and all the associated site temporaries on building sites and public events etc so yes I believe I am more qualified in some aspects than others but ticket wise I have only an out of date 16th edition.

Sorry Rant over

 

[pete01]

I have dealt with wires and pliers (as my family describe it) my whole life, I recall going out with dad in my pushchair with a bag of tools etc and helping him and often getting my thinner arms in places he couldn't etc. Worked for BT for 20+ years then into AV

Finally 2002 into control, mostly manufacturing control panels for building management ie heating ventilation etc. for which I was often working on big panels 2m high and anything up to say 10m long. BUT no electrical qualifications. Many times I'd manufacture a panel, deliver it to site and mount it - on a wall or the floor but then not be allowed to wire it up due to lack of qualifications. Days, weeks or months later I'd get the call complaining the panel had faults and go to site to find (usually) the panel worked as designed and the fault was the incorrect way the 'qualified' electricians had wired it up and quite often they would arrogantly refuse to accept they had got it wrong (usually those who wear a baseball cap and especially when worn backwards). Classic things being star-delta motors and motorised curtain/blind/damper etc. which are far more complicated than the 2 week course at the local school where they were taught how to pass an exam.
I decided to take the 16th exam and signed up at the local college for a 12 week evening class. TBH we spent 2 evenings learning how to design a circuit (it really should have been one but far too many of the students struggled with the maths {and I'm being very polite}) the other 9 evenings (do the maths) were learning how to look the answers up in the book and OSG. The frightening thing being the people who failed were generally the 'qualified electricians' doing an upgrade.

Now some perspective here: I'm not slagging off electricians, qualified or not, as with most subjects it's the bad ones which are noticed and the good ones get on with it and go unseen. I've worked with them all and quickly remember who I'd like to work with and those I refuse point blank. The vast proportion of my work has always been commercial and house bashers (Not a criticism) hopefully soon get wedeled out. I've been on many teams where my presence has been requested from the pool over others who are qualified. I've installed and otherwise worked on: Circuits rated at hundreds of amps - installed 1MW 11KV transformers and the switchgear that goes with them - 100KVA temporary generators and all the associated site temporaries on building sites and public events etc so yes I believe I am more qualified in some aspects than others but ticket wise I have only an out of date 16th edition.

Sorry Rant over

Interesting read that was, I done my apprenticeship with someone like you, could find any machine fault PLC'S, DC drives all sorts the bloke was brilliant but he wasnt a qualified "electrician" he would call them good diyers which caused a few arguments lol.
But myself I have worked mostly with machine moving companies and big mains supplies so the house bashing side of things has passed me by which doesn't bother me as I wouldnt want it any other way.

 

[SUNRAY]

Interesting read that was, I done my apprenticeship with someone like you, could find any machine fault PLC'S, DC drives all sorts the bloke was brilliant but he wasnt a qualified "electrician" he would call them good diyers which caused a few arguments lol.
But myself I have worked mostly with machine moving companies and big mains supplies so the house bashing side of things has passed me by which doesn't bother me as I wouldnt want it any other way.

During 70's a builder friend wanted some electrical work done in a hurry in a new build... like I need this done tonight as they are doing XXX tomorrow morning, suddenly I was his sparks and did most in evenings and weekends for a year or two. Paid really well too but working in peoples homes is very different. Referring to installation rather than repair.

Commercial is so so different.
I haven't got too involved with the operation of PLC's/BMS etc as there are so many variations but sitting with the programmers gave me a pretty good insight.

 

[JohnW2]

A few years back .... We had an absolutely excellent tutor who took us stage by stage thru the concepts and we all had an understanding of the regs thanks to him. .... Roll forwards a few years .... the teaching methods were completely different. In my opinion it had become a course on how to pass the exam and not so much of understanding all the regs.

I fear that nearly all education (certainly pre-uni) has moved very much in that direction.

The other dramatic change since 'my days' has been the widespread shift to MCQ exams. They are obviously easier/quicker/cheaper to mark, and have the advantage of consistency of marking, but "prompted recall" is very different from what one needs in the real world - so very haigh marks in a MCQ exam do not necessarily mean much in relation to preparedness for real-world work..

Ref "the infamous BAS", yes he was very well read and had a superb understanding of electrics re regs etc. He never claimed to be an electrician.
His delivery was sometimes seen as abrupt, he did not take prisoners, he spoke as he found. that made him infamous. I think I only disagreed with him openly twice and one of those I changed my mind and came around to his way of thinking. .... Technically he was pretty good and he went up against electricians sometimes and yes, some of them he ran rings around them. It was his method of delivery that caused friction rather than the content of his knowledge.

All agreed. I suppose that I might, in a good few senses, compare myself with him, but I would hope that my "method of delivery" (although it probably annoys some people) is probably, in general, less 'friction-provoking' I would ceeertainly trust him, not only for his knowledge of regs and underlying principles, but I would also happily trust work on my electrical installation to him.

Somebody once told me that BAS used to be a lumberjack in the Sahara Forest - Look what a cracking job he made of that one!

I have a fairly close 'real-world' relationship with him, and know a lot about his background, but the "Sarah Forest" does not feature in anything I've been told. In fact, I think he has spent virtually all of his life around outer London.

There have been times when I`ve met some people, in all walks of life not just electrics, and they have masses of qualifications but I sometimes think they have a bit of a lack of understanding. Sometimes I find some people with fewer, if any, qualifications who actually have a better understanding of things.

Agreed, and this is where I have to get a bit arrogant again. In my work, I have often found myself dealing with highly respected (sometimes 'famous') academics or senior professional people (what the commercial guys commonly cause "Key Opinion Leaders" these days). A good few of them are truly impressive, in a manner I would not dream of being able to emulate. However, a good few of them have seemed to have less understanding of their field (and/or common sense) than I feel that I do - and I've sometimes been frustrated by the fact that such people are 'famous/respected experts', whereas I am 'nothing'.

'Qualifications' and 'status' are certainly not everything. Many (I hate to admit it, but best part of six!) decades ago, in the context of Amateur Radio I was very involved in radio communication by 'meteor scatter', and that required quite a bit of understanding of the physics/'astronomy etc. of meteors. At the time, one of the 'authorities' in that field, including some very complex maths, was guy that I came to know well, who I think was called Charlie something! He had absolutely no formal training or qualifications in the field, everything having been 'self-taught' and his 'day job' (I think for all of his life, was as a 'time-served printer', who often turned up at conferences etc. covered in ink!

Kind Regards, John