Day rate advice

Apprentice costs aren't cheap, salary nowadays starting on 60%* of a tradesman, his employment costs (insurance, NI, possibly pension top-up, training/college fees, workwear, 'office time') so I reckon £170 isn't bad.
It's fascinating to see how "times change". I was recently looking at some documents relating to my grandfather's apprenticeships, in the very early 20th century. He did two, firstly as a Miller and subsequently as a 'Master Baker'. The documents for bother were similar, setting out what he (well, I presume probably his parents!) had to pay for the privilege of him being an apprentice, and also indicating what workwear etc. he had to provide.

Perhaps more amusing to us now, there was a lot about behaviour and morals. Throughout the period of his apprenticeships he was not allowed to "frequent Public Houses, Gambling Dens or any other places of 'Iniquity or ill repute' ", was not allowed to 'contract matrimony' and was also forbin in engaging in activities which I won't mention in a 'family forum'. The documents also set out the 'fines' that would be imposed on him if, in the course of work as an apprentice, he produced foodstuffs which were "not saleable", but was also forbidden from taking away these "not saleable" products for his own consumption :)

Kind Regards, John
 
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Perhaps more amusing to us now, there was a lot about behaviour and morals. Throughout the period of his apprenticeships he was not allowed to "frequent Public Houses, Gambling Dens or any other places of 'Iniquity or ill repute' ", was not allowed to 'contract matrimony' and was also forbin in engaging in activities which I won't mention in a 'family forum'. The documents also set out the 'fines' that would be imposed on him if, in the course of work as an apprentice, he produced foodstuffs which were "not saleable", but was also forbidden from taking away these "not saleable" products for his own consumption :)
You don't need to go back that far. Indentured apprencticeships were still being served in some trades into the 1970s and whilst your employer had to pay you a wage and supply workwear by then, many of the other terms you mention above were still in force and fines could still be levied for infractions. Believe it or not my indentures specifically forbade me to marry without permission, nor to work for another firm (which I just ignored as I had a lucrative Saturday job). These contracts only came to an end with the introduction of the 1975 Employment Act which gave workers a lot more rights
 
You don't need to go back that far. Indentured apprencticeships were still being served in some trades into the 1970s and whilst your employer had to pay you a wage and supply workwear by then, many of the other terms you mention above were still in force and fines could still be levied for infractions. Believe it or not my indentures specifically forbade me to marry without permission, nor to work for another firm (which I just ignored as I had a lucrative Saturday job). These contracts only came to an end with the introduction of the 1975 Employment Act which gave workers a lot more rights
Yes, I realise that they persisted for quite a while, but in the context of how this discussion started, and as you imply, I think it was probably well before the 1970s that the apprentices started being paid (at least something), rather than having to pay!

As for marriage, I don't recall a "without permission" qualifier in my grandfather's Indenture documents, so maybe his was even more restrictive than yours. Mind you, I know know to what extent the apprentices actually took any notice of most of those 'terms'!

Kind Regards, John
 
I gathered from my original employer, a relative, that when he started in the trade prior to WWI he was paid, albeit a pittance. How well you did out of it was always dependent on how good or bad your master was. In that respect I think I was particularly fortunate in that not only was my master a distant relative, but he was a very kindly old chap who looked after all his workforce well. Some indication of that was that there were more than a hundred mourners at his funeral, many of them past employees or their next of kin
 
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I'm just a DIYer but was an office worker for over 40 years and considered becoming a self-employed electrician the last time I was made redundant, a few years ago. It didn't take long to conclude that the costs and the risks argued for a significantly higher return on a day's labour than market rates suggested I could make. OK I'm in expensive London, but £400 a day for an experienced tradesperson plus a helper seems a bargain to me. Put everything in there - training, van, tools, materials, reasonable return on time spent, losses from customers from hell/non-payers, absence of employer cover for sickness, savings for decent pension etc - and you may think differently.
 
Mid 80's my labour was charged out at £25 per hour to the properties services agency, not that I got that, but what my labour was charged out at. So would expect today around £50 per hour or more. So for 8 hours £400 is reasonable without charging for the apprentice.

But it is more normal to charge by the job, I remember as an apprentice where I worked we would call on the services of a sign writer, he would spend around 3 hours sign writing a wagon, and the company paid his a reasonable fee for the 3 hours work.

Then we changed company name from Flintshire to Clwyd, and every wagon needed sign writing, he declined the work as he simply did not have enough time to do around 50 wagons, which would take him around two weeks. So another sign writer was found, 10 wagons were brought into the yard, and he started, just after dinner he asked for more wagons, nothing wrong with his workmanship, but he was really fast, at least compared with last guy, being paid by the wagon and the firm realised what he was getting per hour, and were upset about it.

Unreasonably really as he was doing the work, but same applies with any other trade, except often hard to show when some one is working efficiently, a simple task like fitting a new switch can take 5 minutes or 1/2 hour even with the same guy doing the job, some jobs seem to generate more swear words, and don't go according to plan. However it still is the case the guy charging £400 a day can work out cheaper than guy charging £200 a day, especially if he uses more power tools to speed up the work.

My son would normally charge by the job, unless the client wanted to help him, then charged by the hour, as he got caught out with guys helping him and simply not doing what was agreed in time.
 
Here in SE London the EICR threw up a few issues that needed to be rectified before my new CU went in. (The EICR and the CU installation were a fixed price for each job). The 'few issues' were quoted at £80 per hour plus the cost of materials (two blokes). They had to renew my bathroom lights, put earths into every light fitting in the house, rip out some dead sockets which had just been left after the previous rewire (and put blanking plates on them), re-route a shower cable and fix a ventilator connection which wasn't working. In fact, they made the FCU for the ventilator into a new socket at my request as we don't use the ventilator. The biggest issue was the very poor earth reading from the EICR so they fitted a new cable from the CU to the lead incomer. This took the best part of the day and I paid for 5 hours' work. So £400 is spot on.
 
Obviously I don’t expect any electrician to agree with me as I see it from the customer point of view where they see it from their own benefit of expanding the business with maximum profit.
I'm not an electrician, but I wonder if, rather than this being a 'customer' point of view, could it be a projection of your own views onto the tradespeople?
Is this more a reflection of your own business philosophy? :)
 
Here in SE London the EICR threw up a few issues that needed to be rectified before my new CU went in. (The EICR and the CU installation were a fixed price for each job). The 'few issues' were quoted at £80 per hour plus the cost of materials (two blokes). They had to renew my bathroom lights, put earths into every light fitting in the house, rip out some dead sockets which had just been left after the previous rewire (and put blanking plates on them), re-route a shower cable and fix a ventilator connection which wasn't working. In fact, they made the FCU for the ventilator into a new socket at my request as we don't use the ventilator. The biggest issue was the very poor earth reading from the EICR so they fitted a new cable from the CU to the lead incomer. This took the best part of the day and I paid for 5 hours' work. So £400 is spot on.
Thats a fair bit of work done in 5 hours, in my non expert opinion
 
The bathroom lights were not the correct rating. I now have ones that don't have a replaceable bulb so the whole lot needs replacing eventually, but they said 5 to 10 years is a good expectation. The sockets had been left after the house was rewired (before we moved in). They had been connected to the old rubber type of cable and were fixed in a skirting board. I said that they could just cover the holes with blanking covers as we were going to have a refurb there in due course and the skirting would go. The lighting circuit needed to have some metal fittings fettled so that they had an earth connection (not all the lights, of course). Yes, I did get the certification and the company is fully registered (I checked their website). I paid £100 on top of the £400 for materials, by the way, so £500 in total. They arrived at 8.30 and left at about 3.30 - about an hour out for lunch at the local café. They actually shifted a load of stuff out of and around my loft to get to the bathroom lights, which took about 20 minutes. Can I be positive? They really worked very, very hard all day and I'm glad that I hired a proper spark and his assistant.
 
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This is all true but then the wages we pay is becoming a service to society like council tax where you pay for schools, police etc. rather than reflecting the actual electrical value we get for the project.

In other words it is possibly more cost effective to pay two separate electricians that are fully qualified if the one with the apprentice is charging same day rate for his apprentice.

Obviously I don’t expect any electrician to agree with me as I see it from the customer point of view where they see it from their own benefit of expanding the business with maximum profit.
You are lucky to get 1 electrician do you won't be able to get 2.
Stop messing about and pay up or wait for your £200 a day mate to come back but he's not coming back is he?
 
@Vicario has raised some points, one is the claiming when work not done to standard, in 1966 the rules changed and one now require an earth with all fixed wiring except for the lighting pendent, i.e. the bit dangling on wires. Before 1966 we did not require an earth for lights.

Earthing requirements have changed more resent, for a TN-C-S supply we did need an earth good enough to activate a fuse or trip within a set time and the trip can only do it within the time using the magnetic part, so a type B will trip at between 3 and 5 times the thermal rating, so 32 x 5 = 160 amp, so 230/160 = 1.4375 Ω however is seems there was a worry about volt drop so a 5% safety factor has been added, so now 1.365625 Ω for the standard ring final.

However with a TT supply we would never reach that figure, we are told over 200 Ω is unstable, but we rely on the RCD to auto disconnect in the event of a fault to earth, not the overload trip.

Clearly it still needs to clear the fault in time with a line to neutral fault, but the earth loop impedance can be much higher.

With a TN-C-S supply we still use RCD's as secondary protection, however personally as a primary protection device I am worried about it being the correct type, and being tested on a regular basis, but not so worried as a secondary device. However the use of RCD/RCBO on all circuits raises the question as to how important the earth loop impedance now is?

Personally I would say same as the 200 Ω is considered as being the limit for a stable earth rod, the old 1.37 Ω for a ring shows nothing has degraded, in fact 1.44 Ω as it may have been wired under the older rules, if one gets a reading of 5 Ω the question is why. It points to a bad connection some where, but the same is true for a 1.37 Ω reading in a house where clearly the ring final is not going the be the full 106 meters allowed.

But the @Vicario has been previously re-wired, with no earths to lights, so either pre-1966 or some one has really messed up. In around 2004 the Part P law started to take effect, before then we often saw homes rewired without an installation certificate being raised, which means we have no idea who did the job in many cases, however after 2004 we have installation certificates which should form part of a traceable record, I say should, as when I tried to get replacements I failed, the idea was the scheme provider checks the installation certificate and if OK issues a compliance certificate, however it seems the scheme providers work on trust, and issue a compliance certificate without seeing the installation certificate, but one hopes the owners pass on the originals when a property is sold.

So if you know who wired it, and there is a problem in how it was wired, is there any time limit to calling some one back to correct poor workmanship? I still get recall notices from Kia and Honda for faults with a 20 year old car, so one would assume one should also be able to claim from an electrician after 20 years? Well since we should get an EICR every 10 years, I suppose one can reasonable say up to 10 years after work completed. Raises a question about professional indemnity insurance clearly if some one retires then they will not keep up insurance payments, so will the insurance pay out? And more to the point, how do you find out who the insurer was?

Vibration causing a earth wire to become loose is very different to earth wire missing. If missing then it means one needs to renew cables, i.e. re-wire, OK only a rewire for lights, but that is still a lot of work.

In the main we know a bad tradesman is unlikely to cough up for correcting bad workmanship unless a court ordered him to. And we also know even when a court finds he is guilty of poor workmanship it is still hard to get anyone to pay up, so is it worth trying.
 

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