Do The Experts Know What Part P Is About? - - NO!

[dave.m]

I browse through the threads on this forums that ask for help or advice about electrics and I am totally amazed at the lack of understanding by the ‘experts’ who offer advice, of Part P rules.
Almost every thread that asks for advice is told that they ‘can’t do it’, ‘needs approved electrician’ or some other checks by someone ‘qualified’.
Then up comes a post by another sparky who contradicts a previous post and says that it ‘is not in a designated area’ or ‘only a replacement’ so does not need approval.

It would appear that NO ONE on here is a true expert on all that Part P is supposed to control and govern, so a lot of the advice is ‘hit & miss’ guess work and a person’s own interpretation of the book of rules that no two experts can agree on.

I can rewire my home, including bathroom and kitchen without any qualifications and still not breach any rules. Why? Because I live in a Park Home, but I am curious (but thankful) as to why this type or residential home is not covered by Part P.

 

[Johnmelad502]

Yes there are contradictory posts at times, but this is often down to interpretation of the original question. Or the question was open to misinterpretation.

Where mistakes are made by one poster another will usually be quick to jump in and correct it.

Let the thread take it's course over a few days and the correct answer will materialise, unless of course the OP does not come back to answer the questions from the experts.

Pity some of the experts (a very, very small minority) feel they need to be arrogant and condescending with their replies.

 

[333rocky333]

Most of us have been to college to learn Electrics.

I did not get taught Part p, I have only read the document on line , the same as any one posting here can do themselves.

If they cannot decipher whether they are allowed to do the work, how can we from a usually vaque description of what they are doing.

//www.diynot.com/wiki/electrics:part_p

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

You have to wonder about the wisdom of trying to give advice to someone who cannot even describe the problem adequately.
What makes us believe that we have decoded the information correctly, then what makes us believe that our response will be understood correctly, then what makes us believe that the advice has been excecuted correctly? Sometimes, the 'get an electrician' response is not due to the legal restrictions put down by part p, but can be more to do with the feeling of the 'expert' as to whether the questioner can actually use the information competently.

I'm not suggestion that this makes that person stupid, so i generally avoid the use of arrogant and offensive responses. Unfortunately, this is not true of all people here. After all, a cardio-thorassic surgeon is probably (hopefully?) a highly intelligent, resourceful person. This doesn't mean he should be ridiculed if he asked why his hallway lights suddenly stopped working. FWIW, I think some of the 'experts' here should adopt a greater degree of humility and learn a few more interpersonal skills and the world might be a slightly nicer place

You are correct that there are many contradictions between posters, as mentioned above, this can be due to the 'more than one way to skin a cat' ambiguity and disparity between our laws, non-statutory regulations, associated guidance notes and perceived 'accepted best practices'

This forum is not a 'pay for' service run by vetted 'experts' but is an open forum, the recipient of the advice is still responsible for what they do with that advice.

In response to why your home is not covered by partp, short answer is ' i havent got a clue', but would go further to guess that it is covered by some other regulation or standard.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

I browse through the threads on this forums that ask for help or advice about electrics and I am totally amazed at the lack of understanding by the ‘experts’ who offer advice, of Part P rules.
Almost every thread that asks for advice is told that they ‘can’t do it’, ‘needs approved electrician’ or some other checks by someone ‘qualified’.
Then up comes a post by another sparky who contradicts a previous post and says that it ‘is not in a designated area’ or ‘only a replacement’ so does not need approval.

I'd say that confusion stems from a mix of three common problems.

1. Lack of understanding of the difference between the Building Regulations and Approved documents, i.e. the difference between actual legislation and guidance on how to comply with it. In many cases there's an absolute refusal to accept that there is a difference, which can't be due to an inability to understand it, as anyone with a reading age in double digits can see what the Approved Documents say.
   
2. Disagreement with the Building Regulations - they would like the law to be more restrictive so they tell people not what the law is but what they wish it were, no matter how many times they are shown the actual wording and no matter how many times they are asked to show where their "version" appears. That happens with non-electrical "experts" too, as a recent exchange with a bunch of lying plumbers here showed, but the most deliberately obtuse person I've ever encountered was a guy called Warreng here: http://www.ebuild.co.uk/forums/messages/770/19672.html?1247091094 - it's just unbelievable how some people will persist in claiming that the law is other than what it clearly is.
   
3. Refusal on the part of the "experts" to take the trouble to read the Building Regulations and Approved Documents themselves, and base their advice on what they've read in documents and on websites that were written by people labouring with problems 1, 2 or 3.

It would appear that NO ONE on here is a true expert on all that Part P is supposed to control and govern, so a lot of the advice is ‘hit & miss’ guess work and a person’s own interpretation of the book of rules that no two experts can agree on.

They can't always agree on what the Wiring Regulations say - it's a bit much to hope for agreement on what regulations that they haven't studied or refuse to accept say.

I can rewire my home, including bathroom and kitchen without any qualifications and still not breach any rules. Why? Because I live in a Park Home, but I am curious (but thankful) as to why this type or residential home is not covered by Part P.

Because they are classed as mobile homes and therefore not subject to any of the Building Regulations.

And thank you for the delicious irony of the highlighted part - just what I needed on a grey Monday morning!

 

[Goldberg]

It would appear that NO ONE on here is a true expert on all that Part P is supposed to control and govern, so a lot of the advice is ‘hit & miss’ guess work and a person’s own interpretation of the book of rules that no two experts can agree on.

I disagree.

Apart from anyone else, ban-all-sheds has covered it completely and flawlessly.

 

[Rob_Quads]

Apart from anyone else, ban-all-sheds has covered it completely and flawlessly.

Have to agree - he clarified a situation perfectly for me

 

[chapeau]

Why does anybody expect to get an 'expert' opinion on the intepretation of a Statutory Instrument/Statute on a DIY Electrician forum?

 

[ericmark]

As BAS does state there is a difference between building regulations and approved document and of course there should not be. They should be the same.

There is a further problem in that the approved document refers to no longer valid regulations.

Main thing one document says what one is permitted to do without notifying the LABC the other says what you are non permitted to do without notifying the LABC. And neither have a glossary of terms.

Circuit is main problem as under the IET rule book each protective device supplies a circuit so any fuse inserted means that following the fuse is a new circuit. But the Part P documents don't seem to define it that way and only the protective devices contained in the main distribution unit seem to be considered as defining new circuits.

Even with that we have a problem in what distribution units are covered as they use the term consumer unit which is a type tested distribution unit.

There are of course mistakes in the main 17th Edition wiring regulations but corrections are published and it is being updated on a regular basis meaning we have to buy latest edition and down load corrections.

But very little has been done to correct or update the Part P regulations and even the way they are published is asking for mistakes to be made.

Approved Document P: Electrical safety - dwellings (2006 edition) and
Building Regulations 2000 are the two titles and because of the dates I can understand why anyone would go by the approved document rather than the regulations.

SCHEDULE 2B is the important part and each time I read it I realise how daft. You can replace any fixed electrical equipment which does not include the provision of—
(i) any new fixed cabling; or
(ii) a consumer unit;
Then it goes on to list other details and 2 and 3 lists the areas and then in 4 some meanings for Kitchen, special location etc.

Now reading that if I was to fit a non type tested main distribution unit I would not need to report it under Part P. I am sure if anything went wrong no court would agree with that and if it has happened already then there will be in place common law which will close the loop hole. However unless you are a lawyer and read all the case law one could not possibly know if this is the case.

Which such a system is it any wonder that we argue with each other as to what it all means?

 

[Paul_C]

I'd say that confusion stems from a mix of three common problems. {.....}

Agree entirely on all three points. I really can't comprehend how people can be so insistent that you must follow every piece of guidance in the Approved Document, when the document is not law, how those people can continue to insist that they're right even after reading the Building Regulations (i.e. the actual legislation), and even when the Approved Document itself clearly states - in bold type yet! - that there is no obligation to follow any of its suggestions.

That guy on ebuild seems to be a good example of all three of your points.

I can rewire my home, including bathroom and kitchen without any qualifications and still not breach any rules. Why? Because I live in a Park Home, but I am curious (but thankful) as to why this type or residential home is not covered by Part P.

Because they are classed as mobile homes and therefore not subject to any of the Building Regulations.

Yep, it's classed as a caravan, so as long as it falls within the limits set by the Caravan Sites Act 1968, it's not legally defined as a building.

From memory, I believe the basic requirements are that it must be capable of being transported in no more than two sections, and when assembled must not exceed 60 ft. in length and 20 ft. in width. There's a height limit too, but I can't recall that off the top of my head.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

That guy on ebuild seems to be a good example of all three of your points.

And do you want to know how petty and desperate he was?

There was another forum where he was a very active poster, and I hadn't posted much, and then for some reason - nothing to do with him (I didn't even know he was a member there) I posted there, and the next thing I know he'd complained to the admin/mods and got me banned for being a troll despite:

1) I'd joined a year before him.

2) My post was nothing to do with him or anything he had written.

3) I'd never had any arguments there with any of the members.

 

[electronicsuk]

3) I'd never had any arguments there with any of the members.

They probably saw what was coming

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

i've never come across ebuild before, could anyone direct me to the petty desperate guy being referred to? I'm intrigued.

 

[Paul_C]

Just follow the link BAS posted above:

http://www.ebuild.co.uk/forums/messages/770/19672.html?1247091094

 

[mikhailfaradayski]

oops, missed that one, cheers