Downlight placement in bathroom

[Milleniumaire]

Prior to the downlights, the bathroom had a centre light with 3 x 40W equivalent bulbs and 2 x wall lights, each with a single 40W equivalent bulb. So, 220W in total and the bathroom always felt a little dark and dingy to me, partly because of the yellow halogen light.

If I use 35W equivalent bulbs, that will be 280W, which should be an improvement on the old, but not sure if I will find it bright enough.

If I can get this useless I Lumos dimmer switch to work then I should be able to control the light level of the current 50W equivalent bulbs.

 

[aptsys]

Rethink downlights over a bath, can't think if anything worse...

 

[Milleniumaire]

Rethink downlights over a bath, can't think if anything worse...

I'm aware that positioning a downlight above the bath isn't ideal as you tend to look up at it, however, we very rarely take baths and we can always dim the lights.

The downlights have now been installed and I'm fairly sure I could probably get a tan while using the bathroom now

 

[Milleniumaire]

Got the Hartington Heath LED adapter capacitors that they recommend need to be installed to stop the LED bulb flickering when dimming down. Their website suggests upto 3 may be required, so I ordered 3, although connecting one seems to have fixed the problem, so they now dim down perfectly without any flickering at all, which resolves my "too bright" issue as I can now successfully dim them down.

The LED adapters are capacitors encased in a ceramic body with two flame resistant cables that need to be connected across live and neutral. When the lights are on the ceramic body gets VERY hot (too hot to touch), which worries me a little as I wouldn't want them to be touching anything in the loft space, such as insulation.

I would like to connect them up in a heat resistant box to avoid this. Would the wago box be appropriate to house something that gets hot or is there something better and more heat resistant?

 

[flameport]

Would the wago box be appropriate to house something that gets hot

Certainly not - it will melt, and placing a blazing hot item in a box of any sort will make it hotter.

If it's getting hot, it's not a capacitor. More likely a resistor, the purpose of which is to waste power in an attempt to conceal the fact that the dimmer can't work with low loads and therefore isn't fit for purpose.

The solution is to get a decent dimmer that works with LEDs. No wasteful overheating resistors required.

 

[bernardgreen]

Hartington Heath LED adapter capacitors

What does it say on the label ? ohms or μF

A capacitor could get warm but should not get hot. Some of these adaptors are NOT capacitors but a large power resistor typically 10 watts to load the SMPS ( power supply ) above its miminum load.

The resistive ones can over heat and should NOT be placed anywere near combustable materials.

Flameport is right, the advice about getting a decent dimmer is sensible.

 

[JohnD]

yellow halogen light.

really?

Do you smoke?

 

[Milleniumaire]

If it's getting hot, it's not a capacitor. More likely a resistor, the purpose of which is to waste power in an attempt to conceal the fact that the dimmer can't work with low loads and therefore isn't fit for purpose.

The solution is to get a decent dimmer that works with LEDs. No wasteful overheating resistors required.

I guess they are telling porkies then: I LumoS LED Adapter Capacitor for use against Dimmer Light Switches Flickering

In the email explaining why the lights flickered, they said "This is a common problem caused by a unstable load across the circuit".

On their website they also blame LED bulbs with too low wattage e.g. 3W or below and "poor quality" LED's. When I asked they were unable to provide any particular brand of LED bulbs that had been tested and worked without flashing, although they did say "we haven't heard of any issues with Philips LED bulbs".

 

[Milleniumaire]

really?

Do you smoke?

I'm simply using the description most often used to describe "the warm, slightly yellow glow of an old incandescent or halogen" bulb, which has it's uses and is similar to the "warm white" glow of an LED bulb.

 

[bernardgreen]

I guess they are telling porkies then: I LumoS LED Adapter Capacitor for use against Dimmer Light Switches Flickering

In the email explaining why the lights flickered, they said "This is a common problem caused by a unstable load across the circuit".

There are two reasons why LED lamps flicker.

A) Erratic operation when the lamp is ON....The load on the power supply is too small for the supply to be stable in operation. The output voltage become unstable when the supply is under loaded.t. A resistor that increases the load solves this but at the risk of an overheating resistor being a fire risk. If the power supply is still unstable with the resistor fitted then the resistor could be over loaded and become dangerously hot.

B) Flickering or flashing when the lamp is OFF. Stray capacitance in cabling is allowing a small amount of current to by-pass the switch and reach the lamp. This is too small for the lamp to light mormally.. What happens is that lamp stores this small trinkle of energy until there is enough to light the lamp. The stored energy is only enough for a short flash before the store is empty. A small capacitor connected across the lamp provides a bypass for the trickle of current thsus preventing the lamps from storing it.

 

[EFLImpudence]

Prior to the downlights, the bathroom had a centre light with 3 x 40W equivalent bulbs and 2 x wall lights, each with a single 40W equivalent bulb.

No. They were 40W bulbs. The Wattage is not equivalent to anything; it is 40W.
A manufacturer might claim that a 5W LED is as bright as (equivalent to) a 40W incandescent but the Wattage is what it is,
A 100W (possibly 60W) globe light in the centre of a bathroom was always sufficiently bright.

So, 220W in total and the bathroom always felt a little dark and dingy to me, partly because of the yellow halogen light.

5 x 40W is 200W.

If I use 35W equivalent bulbs, that will be 280W,

No. If you use LED lights as bright as (equivalent to) 35W incandescent, the Wattage will not be be 280W.
If you need to use eight 35W incandescents in downlights, it just shows that something is not as claimed.

which should be an improvement on the old, but not sure if I will find it bright enough.

Your previous lights were not stuffed into a hole in the ceiling.

 

[Milleniumaire]

No. They were 40W bulbs.

The light fittings accepted a maximum of 40W bulbs, but the installed bulbs were actually 28W low energy halogen, so gave the equivalent lumens of a 40W bulb.

The Wattage is not equivalent to anything; it is 40W.

I understand what you are saying - the equivalence is based on the amount of light given out by the bulb, however, the laymen understands the concept of equivalent wattage. I think people (including myself) understand that the equivalence measure is based on how much light the bulb is capable of producing for the particular technology.


Bernard, just to be clear, the flashing of the LED's ONLY occurred when they were dimmed. When on full brightness there was no flickering/flashing and when they were turned off, there was no residual glow. The LED adaptor capacitor has stopped the flashing when they are dimmed. I guess it is the technology used in the touch switch that is causing the issue as I see these LED adaptor capacitors being sold by a number of touch switch manufacturers. Having said that, it's interesting that the guy said they've never had issues reported for Philips LED bulbs. Maybe these are much better quality than Megaman?

 

[EFLImpudence]

The light fittings accepted a maximum of 40W bulbs, but the installed bulbs were actually 28W low energy halogen, so gave the equivalent lumens of a 40W bulb.

No. They are 'low energy' because they are a lower Wattage and use less power(energy).

I understand what you are saying

Ok.

- the equivalence is based on the amount of light given out by the bulb, however, the laymen understands the concept of equivalent wattage.

If you say so but then they are wrong so it depends what you mean by 'understands'.
There is no such thing as equivalent Wattage.
Wattage is Wattage and relates to the power used.

Lumens per Watt is what is compared and that does not tell you how much power they use - like miles per hour does not tell you how far you have travelled.

I think people (including myself) understand that the equivalence measure is based on how much light the bulb is capable of producing for the particular technology.

Yes, not directly related to the Wattage.

 

[winston1]

This appears to be a "known" issue, according to the hartington heath website, from where the switch was purchased.

Having looked at that website I have never seen so much misinformation in one place.

e.g.There are no positive and negative terminals on the adapters so either one of the cables are attached in parallel to the blue and the other cable on the brown cable of the LED transformer.

Someone should tell them that there is no positive and negative on AC circuits.

• As long as all the LED lights are connected in serial then installing multiple LED adapters on one location should work for all Lights as the current passes through them all in a single line. If the lights are connected in parallel then 1 on each light may be needed or at the point where they are joined together.

What do they mean connected in serial? There is no such term. If they mean series they are stupid, as each light would get a fraction of the voltage. If they are in parallel, which they would be, why would more than one be needed one has to ask?

The led adapter is a capacitor, and when used it is designed to suppress any current leak and stop the flickering.

As current flows through them they will get hot but this is normal as heat is the byproduct of the adapter.

How can a parallel capacitor suppress leakage current?
If they really are a capacitor they will not get hot as capacitive current is lossless.

Be interesting to get hold of one of these thing and dissect it.

Not much point in banning halogen lamps to save energy, then fitting lossy adapters to use it again. They should be banned as well.

 

[phatboy]

Sadly you have already fitted inappropriate units. There are a wonderful array of larger LED fittings that would have resulted in you only needing probably 3 in total maybe 4. They are usually 80 - 100mm big, so spread light further, and have an almost 180degree beam angle - they are certainly not 'spot' lights as you have installed.

Flickering is caused by:
- crap LED's
- non-dimmable LED's being dimmed
- A non-leading edge LED compatible dimmer
- Crap LED's without suppression. Where I have used smaller LED's, I've always gone for a known brand, usually Aurora

Shame you didn't post here before installation really