EICR, fixed wiring, no earth, exclusions etc

[SUNRAY]

New thread started to prevent too many OT replies in another thread.

We may well never know what the regs intended, but you presumably have a view as to whether it would be silly or sensible for my TV to be coded on an EICR because, although plugged in to a BS1363 socket it is 'fixed to the building' and has a 2-core mains cable?

Kind Regards, John

We may well never know what the regs intended, but do you have a view as to whether it would be silly or sensible for a CEILING ROSE coded on an EICR because, although plugged in to a BS1363 socket it is 'fixed to the building' and has a 2-core mains cable?

 

[RF Lighting]

I can’t say I’ve ever come across this arrangement, but it makes no difference if a plug and socket is used to connect the wiring to the electrical supply or if it is physically wired in to some terminal of some description. It still has the exact same potential to give an electric shock or start a fire.

If the wiring and the rose are physically attached to the building then it is part of the fixed installation and requires a CPC. If it is not present then it would be code 3 assuming the rose is class II

 

[SUNRAY]

I can’t say I’ve ever come across this arrangement, but it makes no difference if a plug and socket is used to connect the wiring to the electrical supply or if it is physically wired in to some terminal of some description. It still has the exact same potential to give an electric shock or start a fire.

If the wiring and the rose are physically attached to the building then it is part of the fixed installation and requires a CPC. If it is not present then it would be code 3 assuming the rose is class II

And playing devils advocate, how is this different to a TV bolted to the wall and plugged in or worse permanently connected to a FCU?

 

[RF Lighting]

A tv is current using equipment connected to a point. A light fitting is not.

 

[SUNRAY]

A tv is current using equipment connected to a point. A light fitting is not.

Even when fitted and wired in basically an identical manner?
Are these two devices defined somewhere to make the distinction?

 

[JohnW2]

A tv is current using equipment connected to a point. A light fitting is not.

As I've just written in the other thread, BS7671 defines 'current using equipment' as "Equipment which converts electrical energy into another form of energy, such as light, heat or motive power".

In what way does a light fitting not qualify?

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

New thread started to prevent too many OT replies in another thread.
We may well never know what the regs intended, but do you have a view as to whether it would be silly or sensible for a CEILING ROSE coded on an EICR because, although plugged in to a BS1363 socket it is 'fixed to the building' and has a 2-core mains cable?

If the wiring and the rose are physically attached to the building then it is part of the fixed installation and requires a CPC. If it is not present then it would be code 3 assuming the rose is class II

Well, quite apart from the fact that it being a bizarre situation you hypothesise, I find it a little hard to see how it could be considered as part of the 'fixed' electrical installation and inspected (let alone coded) as part of an EICR if, even if the rose and wiring were 'fixed to the building', the plug was not plugged into anything at the time of the inspection.

I have a good few workshop tools which are 'fixed to the building'. emanating from which are cables with 13A plugs on the end (and those cables usually at least in places 'fixed to the building'), but with the plugs commonly not plugged into any socket. Would they have to be inspected and tested (and potentially 'coded') during the course of an EICR inspection if they were not 'plugged in at the time' - and, if not, what if they were 'plugged in at the time?

Kind Regards, John

 

[ericmark]

“consumer’s installation” means the electric lines situated upon the consumer’s side of the supply terminals together with any equipment permanently connected or intended to be permanently connected thereto on that side;

I seem to remember a court case where nailed to wall is permanent but screwed to wall is not, a screw is designed to be removed, so if I lay an extension lead across my kitchen then I do not need the register the work, with LABC but if I use a hand full of cable clips and hammer them into the wall to keep the lead and socket off the counter then technically I should apply to the LABC before doing so, since I live in Wales and a kitchen is a special location. But if I use screws then it would be OK without telling them.

So be it a boiler, extractor fan, if fitted using screws it is not permanent, so not part of the installation.

 

[RF Lighting]

How exactly does this piece of kit convert energy?

 

[ericmark]

How exactly does this piece of kit convert energy?

View attachment 209926

It does not, but there is a special exemption for that bit of equipment so it does not require an earth to the lamp socket.

 

[RF Lighting]

Well, quite apart from the fact that it being a bizarre situation you hypothesise, I find it a little hard to see how it could be considered as part of the 'fixed' electrical installation and inspected (let alone coded) as part of an EICR if, even if the rose and wiring were 'fixed to the building', the plug was not plugged into anything at the time of the inspection.

I have a good few workshop tools which are 'fixed to the building'. emanating from which are cables with 13A plugs on the end (and those cables usually at least in places 'fixed to the building'), but with the plugs commonly not plugged into any socket. Would they have to be inspected and tested (and potentially 'coded') during the course of an EICR inspection if they were not 'plugged in at the time' - and, if not, what if they were 'plugged in at the time?

Kind Regards, John

Moving the goal posts again I see fgs. If my house had a 125A plug and socket between the meter and consumer unit, and it was unplugged, do I not need an eicr?

It’s really getting tiresome now how desperate you are to try and win what ever point it is you’re trying to make by dreaming up increasingly more obscure scenarios every time.

 

[RF Lighting]

It does not, but there is a special exemption for that bit of equipment so it does not require an earth to the lamp socket.

No, but the rose still requires an earth which is what the question was in the first place. If it does not convert energy then it is not current using equipment, so must be a point or accessory which requires an earth connection.

 

[JohnW2]

How exactly does this piece of kit convert energy?

That alone obviously doesn't, any more would a 'heater' without its element - and, in any event, as you know, that particular one has a special dispensation to not have a CPC run to a lamp holder.

However, as you know only too well, there are plenty of light fittings which, as sold, do (when energised!) 'convert energy', and those are amongst the ones which, even if they are Class II, we tell people they must run CPCs to (which is also my understanding of the intent of the regs.)

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

Moving the goal posts again I see fgs. If my house had a 125A plug and socket between the meter and consumer unit, and it was unplugged, do I not need an eicr?

I don't know about "fgs" - I mentioned that very point in a reply to you yesterday to indicate my belief that such would be just as silly as the converse (suddenly changing our views about something because it was connected via an FCU rather than a plug/socket). ....

... Let's face it, thinking 'the other way around', one could take almost anything that was normally considered to be 'obviously part of the fixed installation' and connect it to the rest of the installation using some appropriate plug and socket - but to then declare that it had suddenly ceased to be part of the 'fixed installation' would seem to me to be as silly/inappropriate as saying that connecting a table lamp to an FCU suddenly makes it 'part of the fixed installation'....

.. in other words, I don't believe that if something is 'connected', its 'status' changes (either way around) if that connection changes from a plug/socket to screwed (or whatever) terminals, or vice versa.

Kind Regards, John

 

[RF Lighting]

So why does the light in post #7 not form part of the electrical installation yet my consumer unit in post #14 does? What’s the difference?