EICR - would this be inspected?

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When carrying out an EICR do they look at the condition of wiring at a boiler and or thermostats? The reason why I ask is, often I attend some poorly installed receivers etc.

However, two of the worst I have seen are: one I attended a few years ago, someone had cut the cable exiting the fcu to about 3” and joined the boiler cable with a terminal strip and wrapped in insulating tape.

The second was yesterday, with basic protection being lost, as the cable entered the boiler the outer sheath of the white flex had been removed, exposing the 3 cores (insulated). This was inside the boiler, but before it entered the pcb housing.

Are these just poor Installations and I flag them (we’re social housing), actually, the 1st one I think I sorted on the day of my visit, but if not would thy be spotted on an EICR? I am a gas safe registered engineer.

Thanks.
 
Sorry I was not being clear, Sunray is correct about the boiler, I meant the piece of flex feeding the boiler from the Switched Fused Connection Unit or whatever. If the stat is an old traditional wall mounted hardwired type then yes it would be on the list to be inspected I reckon although some would consider the whole of the boiler installation to be outside their remit. I would also allow for inspecting the boiler programmer if a seperate unit too.
 
Yes of course it should be spotted - is it a "Drive By" ???
No not drive by's and a lot of our sparks are good. It was more if others than my diligent self entered it might have got left. Only people qho may have spotted inside the boiler other than me might be the auditors.
 
If the stat is an old traditional wall mounted hardwired type then yes it would be on the list to be inspected I reckon although some would consider the whole of the boiler installation to be outside their remit. I would also allow for inspecting the boiler programmer if a seperate unit too.
No, a lot of the ones im talking about are wireless stats. Dickheads using cpc as a switched live/line. Electrical managers answer was to put brown sleeving on.
 
There is a problem with the English landlord law,
“electrical equipment” means those electrical fixtures, fittings and appliances that are not electrical installations;

“electrical installation” has the meaning given in regulation 2(1) of the Building Regulations 2010(2);

“electrical installation” means fixed electrical cables or fixed electrical equipment located on the consumer's side of the electricity supply meter;

Portable is considered as either under 18 kg or has wheels. The problem is the "fixed electrical equipment" with a standard current using equipment is tested when doing the inspection and testing of in-service electrical equipment often called PAT testing, and the law has split the EICR and PAT testing differently to how it has been split by the electrical industry, and it was never required it inspect all with an EICR, the industrial standard was to inspect a percentage of the installation, and if all was OK one could assume the rest was also OK, if however faults were found the percentage tested was increased. This was all laid out in the documents issued, we did not hide what was being done.

It is impossible to inspect and test all, be items be buried in the walls, or at a height where it would require a cherry picker, there will be bits one can't inspect, and one has to remember the EICR can be on an industrial batching plant or a house, the rules are the same.

When taking a C&G 2391 there is no expiry date, nothing on my certificate says valid until xx-xx-xx. And there is no need to pass the C&G 2391 to do inspection and testing, it is down to what ones professional indemnity insurance requires. One would be silly to do inspection and testing without it.

So unless the boiler has clearly marked on it gas safe or corgi qualified access only, the electrician under the landlord law should remove covers and inspect, this could be dangerous, so one can understand were electrical inspectors ignore the law and don't test and inspect equipment and only do the installation.

Also, the EICR is looking for deterioration, there should not be any shoddy workmanship for the inspector to find. Yes it does happen, which is why we test a ring final to see if still a ring, but as to how far one goes, is a question for debate, we were taught to look for a figure of 8 with a ring final, but not found any regulation saying you can't have a figure of 8, many will consider they are not trained in fire prevention and detection and consider fire alarms etc, outside their remit, as far as if they work, as long as wiring to them is sound, that's limit of the inspection.

The inspection and testing was split into 3 exams, one for equipment, one for the installation, and one for the management of the records. We should in industry appoint a building manager, and he needs to arrange for the inspections, this is why landlords need to either appoint someone who has sat the exams, or sit the exams himself, so he decides who test what.

So personally I would not remove boiler covers, but I would inspect any associated installed low voltage wiring and equipment, I would not bother with any extra low voltage wiring and equipment. But this is my personal view, I could not say that an inspector who leaves all the central heating wiring and equipment for the gas safe engineer to inspect and test is wrong. As long as he puts that down on his paper work.

Also finding that someone had cut the cable exiting the fcu to about 3” and joined the boiler cable with a terminal strip and wrapped in insulating tape. Could be coded as a C3, so it would be down to the building manager as to if actioned or not.
The second was yesterday, with basic protection being lost, as the cable entered the boiler the outer sheath of the white flex had been removed, exposing the 3 cores (insulated). This was inside the boiler, but before it entered the pcb housing.
This is the same, it is clearly non-compliant, but code 4 has been removed, so the inspector could code it as C2 or C3, there is no MOT book issued by the government for EICR, he clearly needs to record it, but could code it as a C3.

The landlord law is not really fit for purpose, it will take years of court cases to generate case law, to refine the law and define what is required. We see both too lacked and too strict cases, but as it stands, if the inspector has recorded the fault, then there is no strict rule to say if code C2 or C3, with C1 it is cut and dried, but not C2 and C3, in fact there is no rule to stop him using the old Codes 1, 2, 3, and 4 as long as he says what the codes are, in fact he could omit using any codes.

I had a home buyers report done, within this report, was comments about the condition of the electrics, it is not what we would normally consider as an EICR, but the law does not say an EICR it just says qualified person, (“qualified person” means a person competent to undertake the inspection and testing required under paragraph (1) and any further investigative or remedial work in accordance with the electrical safety standards;) so one hopes the surveyor is qualified, and he will likely add the letters behind his name, so you know qualified, so if I do an EICR I should put Fdeng behind my name, but that could be in audio etc, the same letters are given for many engineering courses, it could be in auto engineering. And the C&G 2391 does not give me the right to enter any letters behind my name.

As said the law as it stands is rather weak, with a car MOT the inspector needs appointing by the goverment and his inspections are inspected to ensure he is doing his job right, there is no such control with people issueing an EICR.
 
there is no such control with people issueing an EICR.
Spot on Eric,
parts of what you said I might disagree and other parts I might agree.
In my humble opinion there seems to nothing wrong in removing the boiler cover to take a peek and that`s what I would do then replace it, So long as I do not go into any gas chamber part of the set up, opening up a sample of heating bits or smoke detector bits etc etc I can see as far as possible what appears sound or not electrically.
I might decide to sample so long as the sample is likely due to be representative to the whole, it must be an adequate reflection of what is what. You might decide this is the heating engineer and apply one set of inspections/testing and then that is the smoke detector engineer and apply that ant yet again that there is the original electrician then again some items look lie additions or amendments by some else too.
Each group you have defined by clues or what you`ve been told you might apply different percentages and some of it you might decide it is better to do the whole lot.

One day you might be called upon to explain how you assessed such things and whether your assessment was reasonable at the time.
 
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No, a lot of the ones im talking about are wireless stats. Dickheads using cpc as a switched live/line. Electrical managers answer was to put brown sleeving on.
Agreed, seen it many times, the old regulation had a full stop before it referred to single core cables, which some selected not to see, it has been since clarified, and being over-marked is not permitted except for PEN conductors which we will not find after the DNO head.

I have many times looked in a wiring centre to see green/yellow not used as an earth. And in my own house, the wall thermostat is wired with red, yellow and blue cable which is not the correct colour for 12 volt (extra low voltage) control wires, in industry I would get my fingers rapped for not over sleeving to show they are control wires, but never seen a house basher over sleeve extra low voltage control cables.
 
I have been guilty of saying that people who are not gas safe should not open certain boiler covers, but a recent re-read states you can if you are installing a control.
 
Agreed, seen it many times, the old regulation had a full stop before it referred to single core cables, which some selected not to see, it has been since clarified
This might be the case, however these are gas safe engineers installing the wiring. If the electrical manager isn't fussed about them, neither am I. All I do is ensure i have tried to install any wiring i do to a good standard.
 
I find the problem is, until you remove the cover, you don't know if there is a room tight seal. And as how to test a room tight seal, I don't know, on my old central heating in my last house, I know there was a room tight seal, and if broken, i.e. cover not on the boiler, opening the garage doors on a windy day could blow out the pilot light, I had found this out well before corgi came in, but there was no warning saying this cover forms a gas proof seal. But mothers boiler after removing the cover, it was clear the bottom was open to the room anyway, and it was not part of the room sealed system.

So as an electrician I am left with the question can I or can't I remove the cover, downloading the manual may tell me, if I can find it. So with central heating failed, when seems likely an electrical fault, yes will remove cover to check, but for an EICR, why take the chance, they need a gas safe certificate, so leave that bit for the gas safe guy.

But you are saying a similar thing from a gas safe guys prospective, he also says leave it to the electrician, so it is simply not done. I was taught how to work safely with a 42-inch gas pipeline, but not allowed to work on a ½ gas pipe. I have worked on a gas expiration vessel where every cable had to go through a gas proof fire stop into next room, and use fireproof glands etc. And also on submersible pumps, where any error would result in water into the electrics so we had test points to pressurise, but the room sealed boiler is freely vented to outside, so not a clue how one tests it is room sealed, maybe some form of smoke generator?
 
...I have many times looked in a wiring centre to see green/yellow not used as an earth. And in my own house, the wall thermostat is wired with red, yellow and blue cable which is not the correct colour for 12 volt (extra low voltage) control wires, in industry I would get my fingers rapped for not over sleeving to show they are control wires, but never seen a house basher over sleeve extra low voltage control cables.
Indeed the green or green/yellow has frequently been used for other purposes and not only by DIYers and certainly not limited to domestic installations.

Apologies, this has turned into a long post.

One of the boiler plant rooms I was working in:
1) I'd decommisioned the control wiring of a boiler,
2) the written plan/method statement/timetable was the boiler replaced and pressure tested - scheduled to take ~2 weeks (a big boiler with 12" water and 4" gas connexions),
3) power to be connected by the on site maintenance electricians,
4) me (or another from the controls company) to reconnect the control cables,
3) & 4) scheduled for the 3rd week, either concurrently or consecutively
5) boiler to be commisioned by the installers in conjunction with control company engineer to make any programming adjustments.

During 2), ie during the 2 weeks of boiler replacement the controls company got a call blaming me for the damage caused.... I was rushed into site with one of my employers to a site meeting with all the parties, still during the 2) 2 week period.

For some reason the on-site maintenance electricians had gone in early and not only wired in the new power feed, they had also terminated all of the control cables, including bolting all of the green or green yellow wires down to earth, many (possibly most) of them were not earth wires, in fact very likely to have been some form of live control wire, also they had removed all of the identity numbers.

All of us took lots of photos - I dare to say hundreds between us but my concentration (which others seemed to be unaware of) included the new power feed which was 3ph +N singles 7 stranded and a couple of metres of it was run between the glass fibre lagging and the outer case covers without additional protection, including passing through 2 unprotected starrat cut holes through steel panels, as were the other 'control cables'.

I had a quick 'confrence' with my engineer in a coffee house away from the babbling crowd to show him my before and recent photos and a full report was written up and emailed directly to the contract manager at the time, complete with photo's and estimate for correcting the work and damage done plus an invoice for the visit before returning to the ongoing discussion and fairly mutedly watched the blaming going round in circles.
Fingers seemed to finally be pointing to the electricians who several days later insisted on bringing in 'an expert'. By the time he arrived his photo's were very different to everyone elses where the electricians had made changes.
 
I remember the time, when you were not permitted to take a mobile phone with a camera to work. My sister was having a problem getting a reasonable mobile phone without a camera.

Today people feel they can take pictures anywhere, the amount of pictures I see of front doors with a parcel on them on social media is unbelievable. How he reversed out after this 1779105864466.png I don't know, he not only went down a private drive to the back of 4 houses, but also took a picture. OK my house was not included in the picture, but the other 3 it showed all in their back gardens, not something you want all to see.

I know with my last job, terminal 5, to take photos required special permission. You were lucky you were allowed to take photos.
 

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