Electricity Suppliers - advice?

[SimonH2]

On the subject of building up account balances ...
I do wonder if there are any models shared across the industry as to how energy usage patterns vary through the year/with weather/etc ? If not, then I'd imagine that the bigger outfits who've been in business for longer will have an advantage in having a lot of historical data they can use for such modelling. The better your modelling, the more accurate the forecasts of future usage can be, and the better your position when contracting with the generators for supply - I assume there's a lot of future contracts involved, and to do that effectively you need reasonably decent forecasts.

 

[JohnW2]

Yes they all like you to be in credit rather than the other way round .

Yes, one can understand that, particularly for the very small company, who usually just don't have the resources to 'lend' money to customers, even if they wanted to.

However, as I've said, quite a lot of the complaints appear to relate to attempts to raise DDs for customers who are in credit, and are providing meter readings which confirm that they remain in credit (and are likely to remain in credit). To be fair, quite a few say that they have managed to resist the DD increases by 'arguing', although that has been a tedious process in many cases.

Kind Regards, John

 

[flameport]

However, as I've said, quite a lot of the complaints appear to relate to attempts to raise DDs for customers who are in credit, and are providing meter readings which confirm that they remain in credit (and are likely to remain in credit). To be fair, quite a few say that they have managed to resist the DD increases by 'arguing', although that has been a tedious process in many cases.

If a supplier insists on increasing the DD while in credit, and refused to do anything else there is a very simple solution.
Go to the bank and cancel the direct debit. Use whatever credit is left, then change to another supplier.

 

[JohnW2]

I feed them meter readings each Sunday, at the same time as entering them into my spreadsheet.

In case you haven't already discovered this, one 'warning' about the behaviour of the E.On website ....

... for nearly all of the year other than just before a 6-monthly bill is due, when you log-in to your account you will be confronted by a large message saying either that they "don't need a meter reading" or, more commonly, that "you cannot give a meter reading because a bill/statement is being prepared". However, if you just ignore it and go to the "give a meter reading" place, it will accept your readings whenever you want to give them. The only thing it won't allow is two readings on the same day - other than that you can give as many as you like, as often as you like.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

On the subject of building up account balances ... I do wonder if there are any models shared across the industry as to how energy usage patterns vary through the year/with weather/etc ? If not, then I'd imagine that the bigger outfits who've been in business for longer will have an advantage in having a lot of historical data they can use for such modelling. The better your modelling, the more accurate the forecasts of future usage can be, and the better your position when contracting with the generators for supply - I assume there's a lot of future contracts involved, and to do that effectively you need reasonably decent forecasts.

Well, I obviously don't know how they do their forecasting in relation the the electricity they buy - but, in terms of what they are selling ....

... the small suppliers, with very tight cash flow, are the ones who would really like to benefit from as accurate forecasting as possible, but they are, ironically, the ones with little, if any, historical data .. and the signs seem to indicate that the big boys 'don't bother' to do any real modelling as far as setting customer payments (e.g. DD amounts) is concerned ....

... my current 'big 6' supplier (E.ON) estimates usage over the coming 12 months as exactly the same as it has been during the preceding 12 months. They turn that usage into money and divide by 12 to get the ('fixed') monthly payments for the coming 12 months. They review the DD amount only once, at the 6-month point, on the basis of actual or estimated meter readings at that point.

E.ON do offer some sort of individual 'forecasting' on their website ("your energy overview"), but it is totally bizarre and clearly inaccurate/useless. It presents a bar chart of forecast per-month usage and costs for the period up to one's next bill - and mine is currently showing June as having by far the highest 'forecast usage' for the whole year! Goodness knows how they arrive at that, or what use it is meant to be!

However, returning to your point, I imagine that quite detailed historical data is available from the generators (and probably available to all suppliers) as regards patterns of demand in various areas, at different times of year and (either directly or indirectly) under different weather conditions - although the latter would, of course, only be of any use if one also had reasonably good long-term weather forecasts!

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

If a supplier insists on increasing the DD while in credit, and refused to do anything else there is a very simple solution. Go to the bank and cancel the direct debit. Use whatever credit is left, then change to another supplier.

Yes, that would seem to be the obvious solution, but I get the impression that it can prove to be pretty messy/difficult in practice. Apart from legalities (which I know little about), I think that 'changing to another supplier' can be easier said than done whilst there is 'a problem' in relation to one's current contract (e.g. 'customer cancelled DD'). There are certainly reports of people who have been 'turned down' by several suppliers they have tried to change to under such circumstances.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EddieM]

There are potential issues and ramifications with unilaterally cancelling a DD on your account IIRC. (in fact I'm not sure you can as a DD is a request from a 3rd party (pull) as opposed to a SO which is a push request.)

 

[JohnD]

yes you can.

 

[JohnW2]

There are potential issues and ramifications with unilaterally cancelling a DD on your account IIRC. (in fact I'm not sure you can as a DD is a request from a 3rd party (pull) as opposed to a SO which is a push request.)

Yes, as I just wrote, there are certainly legal issues, about which I know little.

One certainly can unilaterally cancel/withdraw a Direct Debit Mandate, such that any subsequent attempts by the third party to 'pull' money from your account would be unsuccessful - but you may well then be in breach of contract with the supplier. In other contexts, I've certainly often heard lawyers advising that simply stopping paying (no matter what the method of payment) is not an advisable way to deal with dispute over money or contracts.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

yes you can.

Indeed - as I've just written, one definitely can cancel a DD Mandate - but, as I also wrote, that can create problems - e.g. if you have thereby broken a contract.

For example, by chance I have just received a Council Tax bill. I pay by monthly DD, but it makes is clear that if they are unable to collect any of the DDs, or if one cancels the DD Mandate, one becomes immediately liable to pay the full amount of the year's total.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnD]

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/27/27-directdebit-guarantee.htm

 

[JohnW2]

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/publications/ombudsman-news/27/27-directdebit-guarantee.htm

I don't think any of that alters what I've just written - that simply is about a banks obligations under the DD system. It says nothing about the legal situation as regards one's relationship with a supplier with whom one had contracted to make regular payments by DD, and then cancelled that DD whilst the contract was still in force.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EddieM]

Yes, I would be careful of cancelling a DD without the 3rd parties knowledge / acceptance, you can of course do it, but it's not a clean way of going about things, sure, if you agree an alternative repayment to the 3rd party then any reputable company would be Ok with that. Just a matter of good sense and keeping everyone informed, you don't want to make the impression, however false that may be, that you are trying to do a "runner"

 

[flameport]

if you agree an alternative repayment to the 3rd party then any reputable company would be Ok with that.

To be clear - the situation described above is where you already have a credit balance with a supplier, and they want to increase the DD.
You don't owe them any money, and no alternative payment is required.

 

[EddieM]

To be clear - the situation described above is where you already have a credit balance with a supplier, and they want to increase the DD.
You don't owe them any money, and no alternative payment is required.

Ok, fair enough in that case monetarily that's dandy, still best practise to ensure the DD is cancelled from the requesters POV.