Everyones opinion of Part P

[Gaz the Sparky]

I think that it is about time that there is a ruling about electrics like there is with the gas eg Corgi registration. I just think that the governing bodies ect has gone the wrong way about it. The fact that every electrician who has been qualified for no mater how long is now not "compertant " unless he is registered under the compertant persons sceme. But to become compertant you have to pay to do all these courses to familiarize yourself with the buildings regulations.

Then there has been no public awareness about part P so you can still go down to the diy sheds and buy consumer units and fit them yourself. After all said and done souldn't the sheds take all things such as consumer units,outside lights,outside sockets, bathroom lights, showers ect off the shelfs seeing as installing those things require notifing.

Then theres the loop hole that the cowboys will say "oh it was installed in december 2004 " whats stoping people saying that. Also whats stopping me installing something in my own house that requires notifing but i don't bother notifing who is going to report me to the law if i come to sell my house surely I would have to get a PIR done for the sellers pack but he wouldnt know that I had added that on years before.

Also the building control in my area don't have a clue what Part P envolves all they know is that they need a certificate that has got part p stamped on it. They aren't bothered wether its a PIR or a installation certificate.

I can see many loop holes in this Part P i totally agree it should be here but not to crucify the electrician in gaining compantancy even though he has been working for the last 20 years

Also they haven't changed the training sceme for apprentices I have just finished my four year apprenticship where I had to prove compantancy in inspection and testing but the 2391 isn't included in the training so I have now go to complete the 2391 before i can even register as a competent person.

Right rant over
All views would be appreciated
Over to you

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Gaz, I have deleted the duplicate of this post

Mod Rupert
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[Adam_151]

I think that it is about time that there is a ruling about electrics like there is with the gas eg Corgi registration.

That as long as you are competant, you can DIY without issue, but you have to regsister to trade... that would be better

I just think that the governing bodies ect has gone the wrong way about it. The fact that every electrician who has been qualified for no mater how long is now not "compertant " unless he is registered under the compertant persons sceme.

But to become compertant you have to pay to do all these courses to familiarize yourself with the buildings regulations.

You pay to register with a competant person scheme in order to self certify, not to become competant, this are two things which are only loosely connected....

Then there has been no public awareness about part P so you can still go down to the diy sheds and buy consumer units and fit them yourself. After all said and done souldn't the sheds take all things such as consumer units,outside lights,outside sockets, bathroom lights, showers ect off the shelfs seeing as installing those things require notifing.

While they are at it, they should also remove windows, soil pipeing and gas fires from sale don't you think? seriously, I want to know why even thought that suggestion was sensible?

Then theres the loop hole that the cowboys will say "oh it was installed in december 2004 " whats stoping people saying that. Also whats stopping me installing something in my own house that requires notifing but i don't bother notifing who is going to report me to the law if i come to sell my house

If you get asked by the buyer and you lie and later get found out on it, you could be sued for breach of contract

surely I would have to get a PIR done for the sellers pack but he wouldnt know that I had added that on years before.

PIRs were axed from the sellers pack a long while ago, and now I beleieve the goverment has even cut the visual inspection out

Also the building control in my area don't have a clue what Part P envolves all they know is that they need a certificate that has got part p stamped on it. They aren't bothered wether its a PIR or a installation certificate.

They arn't really doing their job properly, but if they will accept an EIC off you without even reading it, or checking that the work is in accordance with it, then its hardly an issue for you.... (but its bad in the way that dodgy contractors will get dodgy work past BC)

I can see many loop holes in this Part P i totally agree it should be here but not to crucify the electrician in gaining compantancy even though he has been working for the last 20 years

Most will agree that its annoyance

Also they haven't changed the training sceme for apprentices I have just finished my four year apprenticship where I had to prove compantancy in inspection and testing but the 2391 isn't included in the training so I have now go to complete the 2391 before i can even register as a competent person.

Most of the schemes will let you in without 2391 these days, only napit IIRC require it

 

[baldelectrician]

It's a shambles- there is very little emphasis on competency, how can someone from another trade become qualified in 3 days. I couldn't learn to fit a kitchen or do mitre joints properly.

The Scottish system of certifiers of construction is a lot more robust- you have to show trade certs and prove competence. You also have to show up to date qualifications- 16th Edition; CSCS Health & Safety Card; Calibrated Test Equipment & demonstrate how to use it.

The powers that be have to either make part P more robust- like require insurance companies to ask if any electrical work has been done each renewal date, and log certificate numbers etc.

There is talk of making the system up here more comprehensive, but I won't hold my breath.

When people who diy can't get house insurance then things may change, remeber if there is no cert then it's not to BS 7671 therefore insurance is invalid.

 

[Steve]

do we REALLY need another part p debate? search the forum for it, theres plenty of opinion on here. general consensus it that its a money making scam, so thats that. why another debate?

 

[dingbat]

Quite right; it's been done to death.

Having said that, inclusion of electrical installations in The Building Regulations is beyond doubt the right way to go about governing it. It will take time for awareness to grow - much of the ignorance, however, is wilful foot-shooting from the very trade that stands to benefit from controlling the service.

Gaz - the fact that you think you need C& G 2391 to become registered is an indicator of this very ignorance. Get clued up and concentrate on making the world a safer place - banning DIY is a non-starter.

 

[Adam_151]

remeber if there is no cert then it's not to BS 7671 therefore insurance is invalid.

Most policies IIRC just require reasonable upkeep, I refuse to belive there is a house in the land that complies with BS7671 to the letter, many probably get pretty damned close, but I'm sure there is always some minor thing due to the way the building is constructed, the sparky has overlooked, or a reg thats been interpretted wrongly...

Many new houses come without certs and with defeats in some cases (something about contracts going to lowest bidder or something...)

You also could get two PIRs and get reports that differ quite a lot.

You see, the thing with insurance is tie it down too much and you have a logistical nightmare on your hand, there has to be plenty of leeway, or you'll have a long list of questions (some of which some people might find too personal to answer) with answers that are hard to pin down to subject to change

 

[baldelectrician]

Many new houses come without certs and with defeats in some cases (something about contracts going to lowest bidder or something...)

Adam

The point I was making is insurance companies require GAS to be carried out to CORGI standards, and electrical work to BS7671, by this I mean any work carried out whilst a customer owns the house, should have a cert- then the buck passes from the customer to the person carrying out the work.

A point to note - insurance companies often require people with larger houses (over £1M) to have PIR's carried out on them, when they realise this is a way to get out of paying then they will be more strict.

As far as no certs, well customers should ask- people usually ask for a gas cert, why not an electrical cert- it's all about education.

 

[NoSparks]

That as long as you are competant, you can DIY without issue, but you have to regsister to trade... that would be better

But doesn't every DIYer believe they are competent? and how many DIYers have studdied 7671 to know what they should and should not do?

As an example, I recently saw lighting cables joined by passing the line (red!) core and the nutral (black) core into different ports on a junction box with the cpc joined in a seperate chocolate block outside the jb. I reported this on my MEWIC and was reposted by the client saying he had just rewired that!

A few days later I found he had removed a socket I had installed and replaced it with a junction box plastered inside the stud partition. I of course hit the roof and said I could not now sign it off. But it worked so he though he was compatent!!!

 

[ban-all-sheds]

NoS - read these, which were valid comments about the tiresomeness of this whingeing 30 months ago:

do we REALLY need another part p debate? search the forum for it, theres plenty of opinion on here. general consensus it that its a money making scam, so thats that. why another debate?

Quite right; it's been done to death.
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banning DIY is a non-starter.

Then wonder if you could give a reasonable answer to the Q:

"WTF have you dragged this up for?"

 

[ericmark]

I think that it is about time that there is a ruling about electrics like there is with the gas eg Corgi registration. I just think that the governing bodies ect. has gone the wrong way about it. The fact that every electrician who has been qualified for no mater how long is now not "competent" unless he is registered under the competent persons’ scheme. But to become competent you have to pay to do all these courses to familiarize yourself with the buildings regulations.

Think your getting “competent” mixed up with “registered” by BS 7671:2008 definition I am “competent” however under Part P I am not “registered”!

Then there has been no public awareness about part P so you can still go down to the diy sheds and buy consumer units and fit them yourself. After all said and done shouldn't the sheds take all things such as consumer units, outside lights, outside sockets, bathroom lights, showers ect off the shelfs seeing as installing those things require notifying.

I can fit as many consumer units, outside lights, outside sockets, bathroom lights, showers ect. To my son’s house boat or my sister’s caravan as I like without Part P so why should I not be able to buy them?

Then there’s the loop hole that the cowboys will say "oh it was installed in December 2004 " what’s stopping people saying that. Also what’s stopping me installing something in my own house that requires notifying but I don't bother notifying who is going to report me to the law if I come to sell my house surely I would have to get a PIR done for the sellers pack but he wouldn’t know that I had added that on years before.

You can also break the speed limit or even murder someone and you may get away with it. Where the problem lies is should something you do then go wrong and injure someone you will not be able to worm out of the responsibility, because it is hard to enforce does not really matter.

Also the building control in my area don't have a clue what Part P involves all they know is that they need a certificate that has got part p stamped on it. They aren't bothered whether its a PIR or a installation certificate.

Why should that worry you? They have to do inspection and testing and they carry the can if anything goes wrong.

I can see many loop holes in this Part P I totally agree it should be here, but not to crucify the electrician in gaining competency even though he has been working for the last 20 years.

Now you are getting nearer to the point.

Also they haven't changed the training scheme for apprentices I have just finished my four year apprenticeship where I had to prove competency in inspection and testing but the 2391 isn't included in the training so I have now go to complete the 2391 before I can even register as a competent person.

That I will agree is wrong, but I did a degree in Electrical and Electronic Engineering and I also did not do C&G 2391 or 2382 as part of the degree I did them at night class.

What I would say is wrong with Part P is the way it is charged. The LABC have a limit of £2000 and any work up to that figure is charged at one fixed rate of £115 and that seems daft. For a full rewire £115 is fair but to change a thermostat to a combined thermostat and timer involves disconnecting and re-connecting two wires and to charge £115 for that is really OTT. Even the charge to registered electricians of OTT for such simple jobs. If we consider that to visit any site costs £15 then if the charge was £15 plus £5 for each £100 cost of work then it would make more sense. Maybe add extra £5 if the person doing the job has not got the qualifications to do the testing.

But it does not help ranting and raving on this forum. The government introduced the law and the government is the only body who can repeal the law. Have you written to your MP? If not why not. If enough people complain about the charges then maybe they will do something? I have complained to my MP and the process is still on going but complain in a constructive manor. It is here to stay but the charges are silly.

I have been in the trade over 30 years, they were some bad practices on domestic work, and it did need something doing. I think Part P has faults but it was a good step in right direction.

 

[Softus]

The fact that every electrician who has been qualified for no mater how long is now not "compertant " unless he is registered under the compertant persons sceme.

This is the opposite of a fact.

Then there has been no public awareness about part P

Also untrue.

you can still go down to the diy sheds and buy consumer units and fit them yourself.

Not without notifying, you can't. Not legally anyway.

After all said and done souldn't the sheds take all things such as consumer units,outside lights,outside sockets, bathroom lights, showers ect off the shelfs seeing as installing those things require notifing.

No.

Then theres the loop hole that the cowboys will say "oh it was installed in december 2004 " whats stoping people saying that.

Reality.

Also whats stopping me installing something in my own house that requires notifing but i don't bother notifing

The law.

 

[Stoday]

I refuse to belive there is a house in the land that complies with BS7671 to the letter, many probably get pretty damned close,

I think that virtually none get even close to the 17th edition. RCD protection of light switch drops for starters...

 

[Spark123]

The 17th edition wasn't a standard when this post was made

 

[mattylad]

If the 17th was made available more freely or a damn site cheaper then many more DIY'r would get a copy to work to it, paying £70 ish is too much for many to pay for a book

 

[ericmark]

The 17th edition wasn't a standard when this post was made

Good point I had missed date of original post. Maybe there should be a limit as to how long posts are retained for?