Existing shed electrics

[LLCoolDL]

Hopefully I can explain this properly...

I bought a house that was owned by an electrician.

My dad was an electrician who was very hands on in teaching me about wiring stuff up. I also know that the worst house you can buy is one an electrician used to own.

I know enough about electrics to know I don't know enough about electrics. I think twice about rewiring a plug Please bare that statement in mind when reading this as my questions relate to making sure the installation I have is safe and what I need to get an electrician to do to make it safe and my terminology is undoubtedly going to be wrong!

My house was a bungalow when I bought it 4 years ago. 3 years ago I had an upstairs put on it. This involved a new consumer unit and rewiring of the downstairs lights. Downstairs, the bathroom, kitchen and bedroom was knocked through in to a kitchen, these are the only sockets that were rewired.

The builder went bankrupt before the downstairs was done. The electrician he had used died of a heart attack.

I had a new builder and a new electrician do the down stairs.

I'm still not signed off on part P and desperately need an electrician that will do this but can't find one (that should probably be a post of its own!)

There is a very very large shed in the garden that the previous owner (the electrician) had wired up. 3 flood lights, 4 strip lights and about 10 double sockets, all look a bit shoddy. There is a very meaty looking SWA running from the house and I know this is burried properly. I also did some calcs last year and am sure it's over specified for the distance (~30m).

Someone mentioned to me it should have its own earthing rod because of the distance from the house. There isn't one. So i thought I'd do some reading... which lead me to write this.

The SWA ran into what I can only describe as what passed as a consumer unit in the 1940s with fuse wire.

The electrician that passed away told me it wasn't safe and had changed over to a small consumer unit with a 32A RCD.

The lights run from a 6amp fuse and the sockets from a 16amp.

Having done a bit of reading I thought I would follow the SWA to the house and discovered it appears to be connected to a plug socket that in itself is a spur off the house ring main.

I read something that said using a small consumer unit with RCD in a shed off a spur would make it less safe than it just running as a spur from the house.

So... Have I provided enough information to say whether this is safe as is? If not what do you need to know?

If it's not safe what do I need to ask an electrician for? I've had a lot of bad luck with electricians over the past 4 years so want to be confident of what I want them to do before instructing someone.

Many thanks.

 

[ericmark]

OK for the signing off you have two options, one get an electrician to do an EICR and not bother with any Part P you then know safe for you to use. Or you go to LABC and tell them and ask them for a completion certificate, the latter could be a bed of worms and very expensive, it will raise questions on if correct planning permission was given etc. I say this first as if having an EICR then that electrician will tell you exactly what you need.

The earthing of out buildings is complex, there is guidance from the IET but it's down to what you have around you, in a housing estate in the main no need for earth rods, we look at the possibility of a gradient of voltage as one gets away from the house. So it is a question of skill on part of electrician doing the work to consider the risks.

If it were me I would just get an EICR, as with the building work, you should have has the LABC asking you what is going on, when will it be finished, since you don't refer to that, I wonder if the builder did not apply for planning permission.

 

[LLCoolDL]

Hi Eric,

Many thanks for your comments.

Over the last 4 years I've had a string of dodgy tradesnen and it's taking its toll. So I want to be sure of what I believe is right before getting anyone involved.

Planning permission is fine. The building inspector just wants a part P certificate to sign it off. He says I have to get someone part P certified to provide me with a certificate.

I had an electrician provide me with a certificate of safety but the. Holding inspector said he is not part P certified so it's not acceptable.

Does that fit with asking for an EICR? (Your plan sounds like a good one!)

 

[LLCoolDL]

Sorry Eric, one last question.

Are you saying it may be possible that a SWA 3 core connected to to all 3 cores of my house (as in earth as well) potentially safe?

Shouldn't the steel wire also be connected to the earth?

Is it potentially safe for this SWA spur to be connected to a small consumer unit in the shed? (Someone else on here said that would make it less safe which to me seemed strange but a little knowledge and all that!)

 

[Taylortwocities]

Its almost impossible to say, without actually being there and seeing what is connected to what.

As Eric has said, you need to get an EICR done. This will check if the installation conforms to the Wiring Regulations (BS7671). The process consists of every circuit being tested. You would need to check with Building Control if this would satisfy their "PArt P" requirements.

 

[LLCoolDL]

Hi Taylor,

It's impossible to say it is safe, i understand that. I was simply trying to understand if there's a possibility it is safe. A possibility not a yes it is safe. I'm trying to establish if anything I have described screams of most definitely not safe.

I've had all the circuits checked. I asked an electrician to check the safety of the electrics. I even told him I needed it for building regs. That I needed Part P (which I thought was a certificate). He gave me a certificate stating everything is safe. Building inspector told me it's not satisfactory because the electrician is not Part P registered.

I've had three electricians so far and spend ££££s, im not spending another penny until I'm confident of what I'm getting. I'm fed up of rogue traders. I'm sick and tired of it. Trading standards do absolutely nothing. Professional standards bodies like APHC, NICIEC and RICS are a complete waste of space. So I'm done with handing money over without knowing exactly what I need doing. I no longer trust tradesmen. Simple as that.

 

[LLCoolDL]

I've just checked. I have an EICR certifcate (electrical inspection conditioning report is what my cert states). That's what the building inspector said isn't suitable because the electrician is not Part P.

 

[Taylortwocities]

There is no such thing as a "Part P" qualification.

What LABC want is an electrician who is registered with one of the Competent Person Schemes and who is able to certify electrical works done by somebody else.
There are not many who will do that. I believe that some members (not many) of Stroma and NAPIT are registered as third party sign off people.

Have a look on their websites for a local one.

 

[LLCoolDL]

The whole thing is as clear as mud. Electrician's say one thing, building inspector another. What you've just said makes a lot of sense. Hopefully that will solve my building sign off issue.


So back to my circuit diagram... think I'll draw out what I have to see if any of you see something glarginglg wrong with it because that's what I'm worried about.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There is no such thing as a "Part P" qualification.

What LABC want is an electrician who is registered with one of the Competent Person Schemes and who is able to certify electrical works done by somebody else.
There are not many who will do that.

Surely what LABC want is an EICR done by a registered electrician. LL had one done, and they refused it because of who did it, not what it was.

I'm not aware of any schemes which prevent their members from doing EICRs.

 

[flameport]

The building inspector just wants a part P certificate to sign it off. He says I have to get someone part P certified to provide me with a certificate.

They are asking for something that doesn't exist from people who almost always can't do what they want.
The majority of electricians who belong to one of the various schemes can notify work which they have done themselves - it is specifically NOT allowed to notify work done by others.

Assuming the electrical work is notifiable (most is not), then there are 3 options:
1 - Electrician who belongs to a scheme (NICEIC, ELECSA, etc.) does the work and the notification via the scheme.
2 - Some other persons do the work, it's notified to building control via plans or a building notice, often as part of other building works done at the same time.
3 - Some other persons do the work and a third party certifier does the notification. This is exceptionally rare as there are almost no persons who can do this - both of the main electrical schemes opted to NOT provide such a thing. It's also desperately unlikely anyone would want to use or provide such a service.

Yours appears to now be option 2.

What the building inspector requires may vary but it's usually an electrical installation certificate from the person who designed/installed it, or if not available an inspection report (EICR).
There are no other documents that can be provided, there is no 'part p certificate' or 'part p qualification' or anything else.
As you already have an EICR, there is nothing to be gained from having anyone else do anything.

As for them requiring all of those non existent items, you may want to draw their attention to what Part P actually states:

That is all.
The EICR will confirm of the installation is safe to use or not.
The law also requires that you notify building control of certain types of work - which you have already done.
There is really nothing else you can or should do.

Building inspector told me it's not satisfactory because the electrician is not Part P registered.

The inspector is wrong.
The law does not require that. Anyone can do electrical work whether registered or not.

Being registered is a more convenient and cheaper option for electricians who do large amounts of notifiable work all the time. That is all the schemes are for.

For everyone else, it can notified to building control in the same way as any other building works.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

They are asking for something that doesn't exist from people who almost always can't do what they want.
The majority of electricians who belong to one of the various schemes can notify work which they have done themselves - it is specifically NOT allowed to notify work done by others.

LABC do not appear to be asking for that - they appear to be asking for an EICR. Yes, I know that the OP did say "The building inspector just wants a part P certificate to sign it off", but he later said "He gave me a certificate stating everything is safe. Building inspector told me it's not satisfactory because the electrician is not Part P registered" which indicates that the EICR was rejected because of who did it, not what it was.

The inspector is wrong.
The law does not require that. Anyone can do electrical work whether registered or not.

At this stage, with the work not having been notified in advance and then carried out with the appropriate involvement from LABC or having been done by someone who self-certified compliance with the Building Regulations, if LABC want the person who does an EICR to be registered as a way for them to verify that he is competent to do an EICR, then they can.

Insisting that that is wrong, and not legally required will result in the other way being needed - expensive regularisation and possibly disruption for the work to be opened up for inspection etc, and probably still the need for a registered electrician to be involved.

IMO having to have an EICR done by a registered electrician (which should not cost any more than one done by someone not registered) is a good result.

 

[EFLImpudence]

At this stage, with the work not having been notified in advance and then carried out with the appropriate involvement from LABC or having been done by someone who self-certified compliance with the Building Regulations, if LABC want the person who does an EICR to be registered as a way for them to verify that he is competent to do an EICR, then they can.

I suspect it is their past policy of requiring NICEIC registration from all contractors; now accepting any scheme - even though not required.

Insisting that that is wrong, and not legally required will result in the other way being needed - expensive regularisation and possibly disruption for the work to be opened up for inspection etc, and probably still the need for a registered electrician to be involved.

Why would pointing out that scheme registration does not cover EICR inspections have that outcome?
The LABC official may learn something for future reference.
You don't usually advise appeasing inept officials.

IMO having to have an EICR done by a registered electrician (which should not cost any more than one done by someone not registered) is a good result.

So would having it carried out by an expert who was not registered.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Why would pointing out that scheme registration does not cover EICR inspections have that outcome?

You're looking at it the wrong way round. It's not a question of whether registration "covers" EICR inspections or not. Legally/procedurally the OP is in a mess with the way the electrical work has not been notified. His LABC have agreed to accept an EICR and issue the completion certificate.

They do not have to do that. They could proceed in the way that they would for any un-notified work, beginning with the submission of a regularisation request, the fee for which is usually 2x what the full plans submission cost is, and continuing with whatever investigations they feel are necessary to determine if the work complies. Said investigations to be another expense for the OP.

But they are happy with an EICR. Result.

So would having it carried out by an expert who was not registered.

They want, surely perfectly reasonably, to be sure that the EICR is done by someone competent and not one of the OPs mates from the pub.

That is actually the opposite of being inept, and it is not appeasement to accept that they can therefore either:

1) Require that the person doing the inspection is registered

or

2) Ask that proof of the electricians qualifications be submitted along with, or prior to, the report so that they can be checked. Note that often copies of certificates are not accepted - the originals must be sent.

Who do you think would end up paying for #2?

How many electricians would be interested in landing a plum contract to do an EICR in a house if they had to send their certificates off to be checked? How many, if they were still interested, would not charge a bit more for the extra admin hassle?

 

[EFLImpudence]

Scheme membership in itself does not signify, or even attempt to signify, competence to carry out EICRs.