Externally located electric meters

[JohnW2]

Look another way, maybe it'll be a bit like uber - ...

Yes, it's essentially exactly the same - and, whilst there is seemingly no-one stopping Uber from doing it, I have expressed my doubt that the regulator would allow the same to be done with domestic electricity prices.

... yes there's surge pricing but the base price is way cheaper than normal taxis.

Indeed, but I don't think that there has been any corresponding suggestion that 'base price' ('off-peak') under multiple-tariff smart metering would be lower than the current price. That is the case with current dual-rate tariffs (like my E7), the 'off-peak' rate still (even after recent detrimental changes) being considerably cheaper than a standard single-rate tariff.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

I was not talking about 'total' demand or usage; just that during the times of peak - or in the future 'over-peak' - demand.

Presumably the overall usage will be whatever it will be and the suppliers will charge whatever they can get away with.

In any event, as above, I don't think the idea of smart meters is primarily to reduce overall electricity usage to an appreciable extent -

I don't think anyone has suggested that it is.

in which case there would probably be no significant loss of tax/duty revenue.

There will have to be to replace fuel duty.
Fuel duty (plus vat on it) is what is levied on petrol and diesel - if electric cars become commonplace this will have to be replaced.
Perhaps that is the real intention and all the other bumf is just that.

With a fuel tax of 5%,the currently claimed/estimated reduction of £11/household/year (about £300m per year total) would only represent a loss of tax of £15m,

I am not talking about that.
Anyway, I don't see how anyone can possibly estimate such figures as the £11 or whatever it is.

 

[JohnW2]

I was not talking about 'total' demand or usage; just that during the times of peak - or in the future 'over-peak' - demand. Presumably the overall usage will be whatever it will be and the suppliers will charge whatever they can get away with.

Possibly, but the £26/£11/whatever claimed/estimated 'savings' presumably relate to total usage (total energy bills), don't they?

I don't think anyone has suggested that it is.

As above, the claimed/estimated cost savings presumably relate to current tariffs (they have no crystal ball) applied to total usage (and the great majority of household currently have single-rate tariffs). It would clearly be impossible to estimate the savings (or the opposite) which might result from possible future, currently unknown, multiple-rate tariffs.

There will have to be to replace fuel duty. Fuel duty (plus vat on it) is what is levied on petrol and diesel - if electric cars become commonplace this will have to be replaced.

Oh, I see - you've gone rather off-topic. Yes, as we've discussed in the past, they will have to find some way to tax EV charging, to replace lost excise duty on petrol/deisel, but that would presumably only be both possible (other than by 'guesswork') and fair if EV chargers are, or become, smart enough to talk to a smart meter. As I've said, by carefully adjusting my usage patterns I currently manage to get 45-50% usage during E7 'off-peak' hours, and I would be might annoyed if it were assumed that, because of the time of day, that represented EV charging on which I should pay a tax comparable with petrol excise duty! However, as I said, this EV business is separate from the general 'smart meter' issue we are discussing.

Indeed, if they were daft enough to have a time-of-day-related period during which the equivalent of vehicle excise duty was charged for electricity usage, not only would that result in ridiculous anomalies (like me!), but when do you think the 'cheap-rate' periods would be - 6pm, maybe?!

I am not talking about that.

As above, I now realise that - but none of the marketing claims about smart meters say anything about EV charging, which poses the totally separate issue of a need to replace (vehicle) fuel excise duty.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

However, as I said, this EV business is separate from the general 'smart meter' issue we are discussing.

Only if you think the subjects are separate.

As above, I now realise that - but none of the marketing claims about smart meters say anything about EV charging, which poses the totally separate issue of a need to replace (vehicle) fuel excise duty.

Well, they wouldn't, would they?

 

[JohnW2]

Only if you think the subjects are separate.

Yes, I think they are totally separate.

If/when there is a very widescale change to EVs, one assumes that 'they' will have to (or want to) find a way of charging what is effectively 'vehicle fuel excise duty' on electricity used to charge EVs; given 'acceptance' of current excise duties, I suppose that would be regarded by most as 'fair'. It's not as simple as with diesel, where one can dye the duty-exempt supplies, since electrons can't be dyed!

However, although smart meters might represent the first step on the route to one way of achieving it, as I said, it would not facilitate an even remotely fair method unless/until all EV chargers were 'smart' - and I don't even know whether any of them yet are.

What are the alternatives? Well, a mileage-based tax/duty would presumably be the fairest way and, although open to some abuse, the fact that MOT documentation now records odometer readings might be used as the basis for that. Either that or some sort of recording device be fitted to EVs or their chargers - not totally unthinkable, given that they have managed to put tachometers into all HGVs.

All of that is, in my opinion, totally separate from the more general need to address the problem of increasing demand, particularly during the daylight hours (when EV charging will presumably be less common - at least unless/until most workplaces have charging facilities {and a means of monitoring/metering them}).

Kind Regards, John

 

[ban-all-sheds]

However, that does not necessarily have to take the form of "a 5-10 fold" increase at the times of current peak demand - one could move a fair bit in the same direction by a 5-10 fold decrease at the times of current minimum demand (with adjustments of the actual figures to get the total received by suppliers right).

I'm not sure.

Is reducing the price of using a tumble drier for an hour from, say, 35p to 3.5 - 7p going to focus people's minds as much as increasing it to £1.75 - £3.50?

that would result in a dramatic increase in profits for the suppliers - which one would hope that the regulator would not allow.

Will that be the regulator with an exemplary track record of keeping a lid on energy providers' profits, or a different one?

 

[ban-all-sheds]

There will have to be to replace fuel duty.
Fuel duty (plus vat on it) is what is levied on petrol and diesel - if electric cars become commonplace this will have to be replaced.
Perhaps that is the real intention and all the other bumf is just that.

You certainly need to break out usage of electricity for EV charging, and smart meters are probably the easiest wy.

And hands up who doesn't think it likely that when they do they find that the installed meters can't talk to the charging points.

 

[JohnW2]

As I said, smart metering alone will not help - we would also need smart EV chargers and (like any other 'smart appliances') I'm not convinced that any yet exist. Indeed, unless it is forced on them (and I'm not aware that it has been), I can't see why manufacturers of EV charges would go to the expense of including such functionality.

 

[flameport]

I can't see why manufacturers of EV charges would go to the expense of including such functionality.

They won't, until there is demand for it.

One possible way for EV charging to be taxed:

People with electric cars now and in the near future will have Economy 7 or some similar variant for cheaper overnight charging.
Later, E7 and the like is scrapped. If you still want lower prices for your electric car charging, a smart charger and smart meter is the only way to get it.
Lower meaning a bit less than the usual rate, but still far more than the old E7 rate, so it's effectively E7 + tax.

That also opens the way for charge control to avoid areas being overloaded with every house charging simultaneously, load shedding for when a power station or whatever fails, and eventually disposing of the 'lower' rate entirely and just charging a whole lot more because it's an electric car.

 

[JohnW2]

They won't, until there is demand for it.

That's obviously what I was suggesting.

One possible way for EV charging to be taxed: ... People with electric cars now and in the near future will have Economy 7 or some similar variant for cheaper overnight charging. Later, E7 and the like is scrapped.

How 'acceptable' that would be (i.e. how much uproar it would cause) presumably depends on how widespread is the ongoing use of night storage heaters. Even without storage heaters, a very substantial proportion of my current 'cheap rate' E7 use is for water heating, so I would certainly be less than happy if dual-rate tariffs were abolished.

If you still want lower prices for your electric car charging, a smart charger and smart meter is the only way to get it. Lower meaning a bit less than the usual rate, but still far more than the old E7 rate, so it's effectively E7 + tax.

I can't see how the arithmetic of that could possibly work. At a pump price of £1.30 per litre, the actual fuel price (excluding excse duty and VAT) is currently about 50.38p. The pump price is therefore a bit over 2.5 times the actual fuel price. If one tried to emulate that with electricity (EV charging), that would mean that the price of EV-charging electricity would have to increase roughly 2.5-fold, and if that was "a bit less than the usual rate", that usual rate (if tolerated by a government) would surely be so ridiculously high as to kill any government.

If, as one imagines, they will want to tax 'EV fuel' similarly to the present situation with petrol/diesel, there is surely no alternative to finding a way to do it specifically for EV-charging electricity - since the total price involved would be so ridiculously high, by anyone's reckoning, to be applicable to electricity in general. I outlined above a few ideas about how that could be done - smart meters plus smart EV chargers being but one of the possibilities.

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

If, as one imagines, they will want to tax 'EV fuel' similarly to the present situation with petrol/diesel, there is surely no alternative to finding a way to do it specifically for EV-charging electricity ...

Which as we all know is not going to happen. As long as someone can use the "13A lead" and plug into the normal sockets for a slower charge, trying to enforce such a tax would be impossible.
They could try and make it a criminal offence to possess or use a "13A lead" (or anything that would connect to other than the separately metered dedicated charger) - but that would be problematic for two reasons :

• Firstly, it would be impossible (or at least, impractical) to police
• Secondly, there are legitimate uses for such leads - the "but how do I charge up when I visit aunt Mabel" problem

So I think we can rule out any idea of taxing lecky car charging.

And that really just leaves "car tax" (aka Vehicle Excise Duty) which is currently free for lecky and very low emissions vehicles. But hiking that would be hugely unpopular - especially with low milage users. Or it leaves road miles taxing, something that they are clearly looking towards as there have been various studies etc into how it could work.
And of course, a road usage tax would bring us back to time-of-day charging - you pay more during your commute than during quiet periods.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Which as we all know is not going to happen. As long as someone can use the "13A lead" and plug into the normal sockets for a slower charge, trying to enforce such a tax would be impossible.
They could try and make it a criminal offence to possess or use a "13A lead" (or anything that would connect to other than the separately metered dedicated charger) - but that would be problematic for two reasons :

• Firstly, it would be impossible (or at least, impractical) to police
• Secondly, there are legitimate uses for such leads - the "but how do I charge up when I visit aunt Mabel" problem

Cars can be made to not charge except via a "proper" charging point. Visiting Aunt Mabel is no different from visiting anywhere - either where you go has charging facilities or it does not. If it does not then your choices are:

1. Make sure you have sufficient range before you set off.
2. Visit a charging station on the way there or the way back.
3. Use a public parking space with a charger when you get to where Auntie lives.
4. Don't go in your car.

 

[JohnD]

in the same way that you aren't allowed to put red diesel in your car, or convert chip fat without paying duty.

There are other taxes.

Maybe a pay-per-mile

Or a blackbox like young peoples' insurance.

 

[ban-all-sheds]

in the same way that you aren't allowed to put red diesel in your car

You can't dye electrons, though.

 

[JohnW2]

Which as we all know is not going to happen. As long as someone can use the "13A lead" and plug into the normal sockets for a slower charge, trying to enforce such a tax would be impossible.

It would certainly be very difficult to organise and police. It was EFLI, not I, who brought EV charging into this discussion and, as I said in response, I think that a mileage-based charge would probably be the way to go.

Mileage-based charging (as a replacement for both Vehicle Excise Duty and Fuel Excise Duty) would certainly seem to be the fairest system, and is far from unthinkable. I think that what is being looked at is a 'telemetry' system but, as I said before, in-car recording (like HGV tachometers) would also not be unthinkable. As you , such a system would (in conjunction with GPS) also allow charges to vary according to location and time-of-day - which one can argue is either good or bad.

Kind Regards, John