"False" alarms on wireless alarm systems

[yaleguy3]

I am sure there is a definate theoretical problem in the issue that you have raised but out in the field and in practice this situation rarely presents itself as an issue.
The normal domestic property is usually adequately spaced from any other sources and even internal sources such as wifi routers only create problems if they are within a metre of the control panel otherwise its not an issue and even then not all wireless routers present a problem only very rarely the odd one or two.
The domestic environment generally has very few conflicting problems - wireless doorbells? possibly but none have come to my notice ever. Wireless routers very very occasionally but easily solved by distancing the devices by only a few feet. Other wireless transmitters?? Taxi cab radios?? possibly but not to my knowledge.
The theoretical potential is there and to be sure guarding the crown jewels you may wish to discard any weakness at all possible but in a general domestic residential street the reality is that it's practically a non issue.

Something I am sure all the manufacturers considered before developing and marketing their products.

If the makers sell the kit that is good enough for me after all if it was a big problem people would know about it already through bad publicity and the makers would have withdrawn their products rather than continuing to develop them.

 

[yaleguy3]

The question was, "When it is on the side or rear elevation" ?

How does the notification work then?

the thing peeps and flashes

Come on, this smacks of asking silly questions simply to discredit.

Not really.
Many panels, wired included, can notify you via the bell when setting/unsetting. Of little to no use if your entry/exit route is not on the same side as the bell.
A quick check in my local neighbourhood shows most householders enter their premises via the side door, me included. So no external indications seen or heard.

The setting unsetting beeps can be heard even if round the corner of a house if you listen for them.

Yes preferable on the face of the building where you enter but not an absolute neccessity.

 

[alumni]

But beeps on setting/unsetting are a royal pain in the arse for neighbours.
Also tell the local scroats whether you've actually set the panel on exit. Not a good idea.

 

[yaleguy3]

But beeps on setting/unsetting are a royal pain in the a**e for neighbours.
Also tell the local scroats whether you've actually set the panel on exit. Not a good idea.

Only in your imagination I have never had a single comment about neighbours complaining no doubt you will tell me otherwise and that it is part of a new bill in parliament because the public outcry has been so immense.

You know if I was to leave my home and a beep went off as I walked down the path and the local scroats knew that meant my alarm had just been armed I would think that would possibly be the worst thing that could possibly have happened to me that day. Blimey the guilt I would feel knowing that they would have realised they would have had to look for ANOTHER house to burgle would have me weeping into my hands uncontrollably.

What was JohnD's comment about making pointless posts in a really poor attempt to discredit?

 

[alumni]

But beeps on setting/unsetting are a royal pain in the a**e for neighbours.
Also tell the local scroats whether you've actually set the panel on exit. Not a good idea.

Only in your imagination I have never had a single comment about neighbours complaining no doubt you will tell me otherwise and that it is part of a new bill in parliament because the public outcry has been so immense.

You know if I was to leave my home and a beep went off as I walked down the path and the local scroats knew that meant my alarm had just been armed I would think that would possibly be the worst thing that could possibly have happened to me that day. Blimey the guilt I would feel knowing that they would have realised they would have had to look for ANOTHER house to burgle would have me weeping into my hands uncontrollably.

What was JohnD's comment about making pointless posts in a really poor attempt to discredit?

Get off your donkey!!

Got nothing to do with my imagination. Nowhere did i suggest noise pollution or such like.
And what a rather pathetic argument to try and use regarding the warning beeps. Pointing out an issue, some would say weakness, yet again leads you to rant with no foundation.

As for your reference to pointles posts in an attempt to discredit , best you pay more attention, it was me who said it - about you.

 

[bernardgreen]

This explains why careful consideration has to be given to the use of a system using wireless.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archive/ra/topics/research/topics/other/lpdguide/lpdguide.pdf

Most people assume that a components of the wireless based system will only ( can only ) talk and listen to the components in their system. That is a totally in-correct assumption for all equipment on the same radio channel and while it is understandable that a DIYer may make that mistake anyone who advises on the use of wireless equipment should be aware of the potential problems.

The normal domestic property is usually adequately spaced from any other sources

One of the sensor's at No. 36 Acacia Ave may be closer to the panel at No. 38 than any of the sensors at No. 38 and while that sensor is transmitting the panel at 38 cannot receive from its own sensors.

Why not do a search yourself and find out what other types of equipment are legally allowed to use the frequencies that are used by DIY alarm systems using wireless technology. At least then you can give an informed opinion about the present and future, may be dubious, reliability of equipment using that frequency.

 

[yaleguy3]

You are right any reciever will pick up a signal at the right frequency from any transmitter.
That is the whole point of learning things into the system. Every Yale sensor be it a door contact , pir , smoke detector , keyfob or whatever has its own unique ID.
I installed around twenty systems to a Park Home estate meaning there were many systems in close proximity to each other. Not only that but the density of the walls would mean the signals would travel much further than they would in a normally constructed house. That was over two years ago and I have not had a single issue with crosstalk , false alarms or alarms that have not activated when expected.
I am not disputing your facts Bernard only that in the field in a typical domestic or even a less than ideal domestic environment I have not experienced the problems you have indicated.

 

[alumni]

Let's not forget that not being aware of an issue, be it intermittent, one off or whatever does not mean 'issues' do not occur.

Depends on the kit fitted as to how analysis can be made to identify 'issues' if they are occuring.

 

[yaleguy3]

Get off your donkey!!
Got nothing to do with my imagination.
And what a rather pathetic argument to try and use regarding the warning beeps. Pointing out an issue, some would say weakness, yet again leads you to rant with no foundation.

As for your reference to pointles posts in an attempt to discredit , best you pay more attention, it was me who said it - about you.

You know the Yale alarms can have the confirm beeps or they can have the confirm beeps turned off. They also don't have a continuous flashing LED.

This actually means that any scroat can't even tell whether the alarm is armed or not. They can only see that the house is alarmed.
I can't second guess the scroats but if I was a burglar and I looked at a house with an alarm and could not tell whether it was armed or not I simply would not take the risk.

Id try the house three doors down without an alarm I guess.

 

[yaleguy3]

Let's not forget that not being aware of an issue, be it intermittent, one off or whatever does not mean 'issues' do not occur.

Depends on the kit fitted as to how analysis can be made to identify 'issues' if they are occuring.

Ok then after thousands of installations and years of alarms live out in the field this issue has been brought to my attention twice.
In both occasions it was not sensors not working when they should have been but the siren activating when the system was not even armed.

No tampers were showing in the logs or sensor activations so it was identified as a local siren issue. One I suspect was due to roofing work accross the street and the roofers drilling - perhaps old worn drills with sparking brushes. The other was possibly but not confirmed a taxi driver next door calling in to his office.
In either case the false alarms have stopped and the panels have not reported any issues regarding loss of devices or devices dropping out of the system.

 

[S21]

You are right any reciever will pick up a signal at the right frequency from any transmitter.
That is the whole point of learning things into the system. Every Yale sensor be it a door contact , pir , smoke detector , keyfob or whatever has its own unique ID.
I installed around twenty systems to a Park Home estate meaning there were many systems in close proximity to each other. Not only that but the density of the walls would mean the signals would travel much further than they would in a normally constructed house. That was over two years ago and I have not had a single issue with crosstalk , false alarms or alarms that have not activated when expected.
I am not disputing your facts Bernard only that in the field in a typical domestic or even a less than ideal domestic environment I have not experienced the problems you have indicated.

sorry, it happens - the problem is your equipment isn`t advanced enough to indicate it.

we have seen sites go from 3% to 98% background radio and back down again.

we were involved in real time trials for a new radio product that couldn't be made to work because at any given time the manufacturer couldn't guarantee "clear air" to the receiver and had to go back to delayed polling times instead

 

[alumni]

Let's not forget that not being aware of an issue, be it intermittent, one off or whatever does not mean 'issues' do not occur.

Depends on the kit fitted as to how analysis can be made to identify 'issues' if they are occuring.

Ok then after thousands of installations and years of alarms live out in the field this issue has been brought to my attention twice.
In both occasions it was not sensors not working when they should have been but the siren activating when the system was not even armed.

No tampers were showing in the logs or sensor activations so it was identified as a local siren issue. One I suspect was due to roofing work accross the street and the roofers drilling - perhaps old worn drills with sparking brushes. The other was possibly but not confirmed a taxi driver next door calling in to his office.
In either case the false alarms have stopped and the panels have not reported any issues regarding loss of devices or devices dropping out of the system.

You're taking things personally again.
Don't recall mentioning your nasty toot specifically, i was referring to kit in general. The fact that your kit doesn't and can't report 'issues' means you don't know whether these 'issues' occur or not. This is most definitely not the same as saying they don't occur.

Oh, and don't exagerate. It really does you no credit.

 

[yaleguy3]

Ok so you have the appropriate equipment with the appropriate reporting so can you say out of all the wireless alarms you have fitted how many you have had inteference problems with or 'jamming' issues.

Now answering this you are either going to admit you have knowingly fitted suspect equipment or you are going to admit you rarely have issues.

Which way are you going to go.. I suspect another dodged answer.

 

[S21]

Ok so you have the appropriate equipment with the appropriate reporting so can you say out of all the wireless alarms you have fitted how many you have had inteference problems with or 'jamming' issues.

Now answering this you are either going to admit you have knowingly fitted suspect equipment or you are going to admit you rarely have issues.

Which way are you going to go.. I suspect another dodged answer.

whats to dodge, never mind another?

we currently have one site tonight that is sitting in "RCV1 jamming" and not usable at this present time. At least we know and can inform the end user - do you?

so, thats the limitation of wireless equipment, it`s explained to the customer @ all stages of the process and thats why "pro installers" (to borrow a phrase from on here) don`t like wireless

remember, we can alter RSSI levels, jamming threasholds, timers and "missed polls to detect" and still the system may be swamped.

yours is no different.

 

[yaleguy3]

Our end users know the system is jammed because the siren will activate in those conditions. This prevents burglars trying to bypass the system by jamming them as the alarm goes off anyway.