Strongly advise them not to lie about it in the future when they sell, and then move on to deal with the electrical aspects.
Forum Attitude to Non-Notification
- Thread starter JohnW2
- Start date
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Thanks for clarifying. As should be apparent, that is essentially my position as well - the 'properly' word perhaps being the area for debate.
This is where the practical/pragmatic issues arise. As we know, there are plenty of members of this forum (and probably a high proportion of electricians in general) who believe (for reasons that are difficult to argue with) that virtually any work on an electrical installation, from replacing a damaged switch or socket upwards, requires testing which will be beyond the capabilities of the vast majority (I'm tempted to say 'almost all') of non-electricians, both in terms of equipment and knowledge. If you agree with that view, then, coupled with what you say above, you're effectively expressing a belief that almost no electrical work should be undertaken by non-electricians. You, I and a handful of others would probably not be disbarred from doing work by your belief, but I'm sure you will agree that we are in an extremely small minority.
The is also a more general problem with "I do not believe that people should take it on themselves to design and install circuits unless they actually know how to do every aspect of it properly" - since you appear to be effectively saying that anyone who needs to ask any questions (here or elsewhere) should not be doing whatever they propose. Do you not entertain the possibility that they may discover how to do it properly as a result of answers to questions which they ask here (or anywhere else)? - not everyone is omniscient, never needing to ask questions!
Yes, we've previously established that this is a point on which we differ. Your position is, of course, the one which would always be appropriate in an ideal world. However, our world is far from ideal, and one often has to think in terms of compromise, pragmatism and 'leasts of evils'. Once one gets to the point of being convinced that, despite all one's encouragement, they are not going to 'get an electrician' and are going to tackle the work in question (with or without assistance/advice), then I think the nature of the relative risk assessment has to change.
In other words, whilst I agree totally that "people are not competent then I am utterly convinced that they should not be encouraged to do anything other than get an electrician..", I think that when it becomes clear that they are going to proceed with the work without any 'encouragement' (indeed, despite a lot of discouragement), then it can be argued that anything that anyone can do to reduce the risk in what they're going to do is probably in their interests.
Kind Regards, John
Interesting story. In the context of this thread (and forum), the interesting (but unanswerable!) question is that of how the court would have ruled had he not been an electrician.
As BAS has implied, it would be interesting to know the 'nature' of these court proceedings - since, as often discused here, no-one seems to have heard of any case in which anyone has faced a criminal prosecution for non-notification of electrical work.
Kind Regards, John
That would certainly be my suspicion. Even if a civil action,it would be interesting to know exactly what was being sought!
Kind Regards, John
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I can't argue with any of that. My near 2 years of intrigue has now been satisfied
Kind Regards, John
I don't recall ever offering advise on a post were work I deemed notifiable work, is being asked about, were the OP is going to solely DIY the work and stated categorically "that they have no intentions to abide by the law" prior to any post I have made.
I am sure the "DIYNOT police" may find evidence that contradicts that?
How can one know? If someone asked a question in relationship to a part of an installation they are struggling with, that is deemed notifiable and claim in one way or another, that work will be notified, either by having self cert electrician (Who is currently on extended holidays) or they have or intend to notify but wish to clarify something. That they are indeed, manufacturing a mass of dense artificial smoke used to conceal the truth.
Far from clear indeed but I will return to my point, if they intend not notify work and make that clear from the outset, they are ignorant to the law.
It's not as clear cut as saying they are need of advise or they will damage property, injure or kill. So lets help!
Life is full of choices.
People don't have to pay for room upgrades or seat upgrades or hire car upgrades when they go on holiday, but many do.
People don't have to take up golf and buy expensive clubs, but many of those who do the former then do the latter.
People don't have to put wider, lower profile tyres on their cars, but many do.
The cost of acquiring the means to test their electrical work is not beyond many people, they just choose not to incur it. That choice is incompatible with choosing to do significant electrical work.
I accept that there are some for whom it is out of reach, probably an increasing number, just as are holidays, golf clubs and low profile alloy wheels, but there is no exemption from the laws of physics on the grounds of economic hardship.
My position is not that people should not ask questions, it is that when they ask "What size cable do I need for XYZ?" they should be shown how to work that out for themselves, they should be shown explanations of the factors which they need to consider, and they should get to the stage where they can competently execute the task which they have chosen to do. They should not simply be told "#mm²".
When they say "Help, I have changed a light/switch and now my lights are on all the time/off all the time/very dim/the fuse blows" they should be shown how lighting circuits work and encouraged to learn what's going on so that they can, with an understanding of what they are doing, resolve the issue themselves. They should not simply be told "Move this wire to there and that wire to here".
And I think that if you have a choice between urging somebody incompetent to do the right thing or assisting them to do the wrong thing, the choice is obvious.
What is in their interests is to get an electrician.
What is not in their interests is to carry on fiddling with things which they do not understand.
Would you guys apply this general consensus to other BR controlled trades other than electrical?
My point is if you do dodgy electrical work, someone can die as a result. So it is important to get it right and properly approved/certified.
However, with other things like, digging foundations for instance. IMHO a lot of this is just 'back covering'.
Our house was built on foundations that are no more than 450mm deep, 40 years ago. It still stands today.
Yet putting a pretty small single storey extension on required footings of nearly 1m, due to a bit of clay and ridiculously over-zealous planning regs.
I'm sure there's a time when people fairly experienced and adept at doing such work will use some common sense and thing "i aint digging down 1m for that" or similar instances when doing internal works.
Have the anal BR's and PR's gotten in the way of doing a job that would still be safe and would you guys still advise (from a moral pov) knowing 'official' corners were being cut?
I find this quite interesting as i know quite a few people across just about all trades and the only real sticklers are the sparkies and gasmen....and that i can understand.
Most builders i know think the regs are way too restrictive and anal for them to do their jobs effectively.
My point is if you do dodgy electrical work, someone can die as a result. So it is important to get it right and properly approved/certified.
However, with other things like, digging foundations for instance. IMHO a lot of this is just 'back covering'.
Our house was built on foundations that are no more than 450mm deep, 40 years ago. It still stands today.
Yet putting a pretty small single storey extension on required footings of nearly 1m, due to a bit of clay and ridiculously over-zealous planning regs.
I'm sure there's a time when people fairly experienced and adept at doing such work will use some common sense and thing "i aint digging down 1m for that" or similar instances when doing internal works.
Have the anal BR's and PR's gotten in the way of doing a job that would still be safe and would you guys still advise (from a moral pov) knowing 'official' corners were being cut?
I find this quite interesting as i know quite a few people across just about all trades and the only real sticklers are the sparkies and gasmen....and that i can understand.
Most builders i know think the regs are way too restrictive and anal for them to do their jobs effectively.
I knew someone once who had huge problems because of that. This being a London clay area.
He too had a house which had been successfuly managing with relatively shallow footings for decades. He wanted to open up the back wall with large picture windows, patio doors etc, and needed a steel with a supporting centre pier, or two steels (can't remember which).
The Building Regulations folk insisted that this pier have 1m footings, and in vain did he try to point out the folly of such a difference between two parts of the same structure, even when his case was backed up by structural engineers who, like he, worked for the council.
So he did as mandated, and come the 1976 drought most of the house settled a bit, bit the pier did not. Result - serious cracks in the wall above it.
"I am not going to comply with the law ---notifying BC----before doing something ---electrical work----which may or may not be contrary to safe practice, and which,if not safe, will cause me to break another law.--- re work that causes safety issues "
How does refraining from assisting me to avoid breaking the second law help?
Certainly advising me of the existence of the laws and possible
consequences of breach is beneficial.
Certainly recognising that understanding of underlying fundamentals and theory is a more comprehensive way of learning is beneficial, but some peoples preferred (or only) means of learning safe working is correct following of simple direction. Perhaps the enquirer should be asked for their preference!
Therefore giving the required information is beneficial to all parties.
On similar grounds I suggest that such information giving should occur for gas work.
How does refraining from assisting me to avoid breaking the second law help?
Certainly advising me of the existence of the laws and possible
consequences of breach is beneficial.
Certainly recognising that understanding of underlying fundamentals and theory is a more comprehensive way of learning is beneficial, but some peoples preferred (or only) means of learning safe working is correct following of simple direction. Perhaps the enquirer should be asked for their preference!
Therefore giving the required information is beneficial to all parties.
On similar grounds I suggest that such information giving should occur for gas work.
Depends what you mean by "assist".
If their preference is to be led by the nose and have their responsibilities as designer assumed by someone else then that preference is incompatible with doing electrical work and they should not be given that form of "assistance".
If their preference is to refuse to acquire the necessary understanding of what they want to fiddle with then that preference is incompatible with doing electrical work and they should not be given that form of "assistance".
If their preference is to believe that they do not have to be as capable as a professional in areas which have genuine safety implications then that preference is incompatible with doing electrical work and they should not be given that form of "assistance".
I made that very point in my post which started this thread. As I said, I've been waiting nearly two years to see that happen, to see how BAS would react - but I've yet to notice it happening. My point is that, unless you are totally naieve, you must realise that it is extremely likely that, whether they are silent on the issue or present various 'stories', at least some (probably quite a lot) of the people asking questions about notifiable work do not have any intention in notifying.
Does this forum have the facility to conduct anonymous 'polls'? That is the only way in which I can think of to possibly get at least some handle on the truth about how common it is for people to (knowingly) fail to notify notifiable electrical work.
I'm not talking about people who are "ignorant of the law". I'm talking about those who either already knew about the legal obligation to notify, or who get told about that in the forum, but nevertheless decide not to notify.
As always, one has to assess risk on the basis of the individual situation. As I've said, if it becomes clear that someone is determined to do the work without any oversight by LABC (or anyone else), regardless of any advice to the contrary, then one has to consider the relative risk of letting them continue totally unaided or offering some advice which may increase the safety of what they do. You may disagree, but to my mind, that's a fairly easy risk assessment to make.
Kind Regards, John
It is morally bankrupt and grossly irresponsible to encourage or assist in any way someone who you know to be out of their depth, ignorant and incompetent to continue blundering on instead of getting an electrician.
I think this is a bit tangential to the primary discussion. As a general principle, I cannot disagree with what you say but, in practice, that degree of idealism may sometimes represent a luxury that one can reasonably forego. Indeed, that concept has always been embraced in many parts of the Building Regulations (although not Part P), which present "deemed to satisfy" answers analogous to "#mm²" for those who do not have the knowledge, ability or inclination to work things out for themselves on the basis of all the relevant factors.
So long as a meaningful 'choice' (for you) exists, I agree totally. However, once it's clear that no further 'urging' is going to alter someone's decision to proceed with work without any assistance, supervision or oversight, then that choice (for you) effectively ceases to exist and the goalposts (and hence risk assessment) move.
Of course, but we are talking about people who, despite that, have decided not to get an electrician.
Are you one of those people who feel that a doctor should refuse to give advice or treatment (relating to the consequences of their behaviour) to a patient who has failed to heed the 'only correct advice' to stop smoking or drinking?
Kind Regards, John
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