Forum Attitude to Non-Notification

[caffreys]

I wish it was that easy! i've a question I need to ask about electrics but hardly dare post as I know i'll get asked about notifications, qualifications and part p.
I agree with this when people blatently aren't making an effort or not understanding what they are doing - telling someone how to do something without explanation is potentially fatal - altho the poster may just go off and do it anyway - again potentially fatal, but hey if were 17th edition we're rcbo protected anyway ;p

 

[EFLImpudence]

I would point out that 'notification' is the law; not just us being awkward.

Advising you that this is the situation is actually being helpful.

 

[JohnW2]

I wish it was that easy! i've a question I need to ask about electrics but hardly dare post as I know i'll get asked about notifications, qualifications and part p. I agree with this when people blatently aren't making an effort or not understanding what they are doing - telling someone how to do something without explanation is potentially fatal - altho the poster may just go off and do it anyway - again potentially fatal, but hey if were 17th edition we're rcbo protected anyway ;p

As I said, you're in a very unusual position - as you say, the problem is with some others.

Kind Regards, John

 

[mbga9pgf]

I would point out that 'notification' is the law; not just us being awkward.

Advising you that this is the situation is actually being helpful.

It's a bit like speeding though isn't it? It's only illegal when you get caught.

And the main reason it's there is to keep bluntly the building control officer in employment.

 

[JohnW2]

It's a bit like speeding though isn't it? It's only illegal when you get caught. ... And the main reason it's there is to keep bluntly the building control officer in employment.

Much as I personally have many reservations about notification (particularly as regards details and implementation), I do not believe that either of your statements are correct.

Kind Regards, John

 

[PrenticeBoyofDerry]

It's a bit like speeding though isn't it? It's only illegal when you get caught.

or kill someone!
So a bit more like murder or manslaughter if you like!

 

[mbga9pgf]

It's a bit like speeding though isn't it? It's only illegal when you get caught.

or kill someone!
So a bit more like murder or manslaughter if you like!

Not everyone who drives without a licence harms anyone. Indeed, I get a fair few who do drive far more closely to the Highway Code than some who have a licence or drive professionally.

 

[Click4]

May I just add to this, I am a DIYer... but I am nearer to professional than basic DIYer. I own copies of the On Site Guide, 17th Edition regulations book (latest one) ... Also unlike some people, I HIRE the test equipment and DO TEST my circuits properly and own copies of the relevent regulation books.

I guess I'm in a broadly similar situation. In fact, I own all the necessary test gear, so I don't need to hire, and have a very extensive collection of books etc. and, even if I say so myself, a high level of understanding of the underlying principles (and decades of experience of doing 'things electrical'). However, you would presumably would agree that we (and a few others here) are in an incredibly small minority amongst the DIYing population as a whole, so we're almost irrelevant to discussions about DIYers in general.

Yet I have previously posted on here and asked a small question that im unsure about.. I have been shot down as being incompetant and dont know what im doing.. and on those same occasions when ive gone ahead and done the work anyway and had it inspected been told by local building authority and electricians that there is absolutely nothing wrong with my work and that the standard is to standard and in some respects above standard. ... Which proves that sometimes, people on here judge a persons competency incorrectly on the assumption of a few mis chosen words or queries made.. but making a query because im unsure doesnt mean I will then go on to do it wrong.. it just means I will spend longer trying to find the answer before doing it correctly.

I experienced similar when I first joined the forum. You have to understand that the problem of this medium is that your words on the screen are the only way in which people can make any judgements about you, so if they don't know you, it's pretty inevitable that those 'few mischosen words' will create 'a certain impression'. However, even if people don't get terminology quite right, one can usually get a reasonable idea of someone's probable level of knowledge and competence by the nature, rather than the wording, of the questions they ask. Of course, there’s nothing one can do to save oneself from a situation in which one has written such as to make one sound like a totally incompetent idiot – so it always pays to think at least twice before pressing that ‘submit’ button!

Kind Regards, John

Sorry about the late reply lol,

yep I am in a similar situation.. although I dont have decades of experience, but I do have a habbit of if I need to do a job, I read the requirements.. learn how its done.. do it, learn from doing it (but not doing it to a sub standard) then next time do it better because I might of learned a better way of doing it from the experience gained doing it the first time... but I do have a high level of knowledge from doing this... I usually take note of how tradesmen do things, then look up the related regulations and then when i come to do it take my time and do it better lol.

I fitted some double glazing earlier on in the year (notified that as well) my standard, I went beyond the normal window fitter methods of installation.. building controller came down to inspect and sign it off and there was 8 windows, a patio door and a front door.. he checked about 2 of the windows and the patio door and was satisfied that they was all done correctly then remarked on the high standard then left without chekcing the rest.. signed it off and while later certificate in the post

But because we are in a small minority I do hate it when I am tainted with the same brush as any other DIYer as being imediately judged as incompetant.

Had same thing in a way just this evening.

I wish to undertake a house rewire.. as usual will be a full building control notification and I will be hiring the equipment to test the circuits before going live with each one... and calculating the correct minimum cable sizes required etc.

I asked on a forum initially about what building control will likely do in this situation as I havent notified a full rewire before.. normally here they charge £200, inspect at first fix, then test when finished... and so they inspect the chases before I plaster in as first fix inspection.

but in this situation, cables are run inside round conduit inside the walls and already in safe zones with no chasing required for most of it. so before I call them on monday and have a chat with them just wondered what peoples experience was in this situation.

then I mentioned a few things which is why it probably needs a rewire.. like the fact a previous DIYer had re-wired the house.. and instead of buying extra cable or for some unbeknown DIY reason, they have rewired the house in such a way that there is a combination of Star and Ring on the sockets..I lifted some floorboards a while ago, and found 7 hidden junction boxes under there.. the round brown type... which I know is not right because not only is it a breach of regulation now to have inaccessible junction boxes unless marked with MF although lots of electricians still dont like them lol. but every one of those junction boxes under there is a potential failure point and fire hazard if the terminals become loose or the cables arent terminated properly.. each one was stuffed full of cables.

No bonding on the Gas or Water.

also mentioned that the 9.5Kw shower was under rated on a 6mm cable.. and that the kitchen when using some appliances it trips out the electrics (checked and not an appliance fault) there are also cables draped unprotected or supported between kitchen units behind the gas cooker... these things arent right... I know this.

Then I got the standard response from 1 poster... "are you a sparky?" completely unrelated to my question, had I really showed incompetance? by listing things which to me seem wrong and a breach of regulation.

no idea if its related to the state of the electrics in the house.. ironically i guessed the electrics were probably in a better state BEFORE the DIYer had a go at them before.

But in the house there has been a few light bulbs "explode" lol I have never witnessed or heard of this happening before and it's happened a few times within the space of a few months.

 

[bernardgreen]

And the main reason it's there is to keep bluntly the building control officer in employment.

Good thing to..... BCOs also have control over the structural integrity of foundations, walls and roofs helping to reduce the number of buildings that collapse. They also do their best to ensure drains are safe and not a heath hazard.

Not everyone who drives without a licence harms anyone. Indeed, I get a fair few who do drive far more closely to the Highway Code than some who have a licence or drive professionally.

No licence so therfor no insurance, that adds over £40 to everybody's motor insurance premiums to pay claims on un-insured drivers.

 

[JohnW2]

And the main reason it's there is to keep bluntly the building control officer in employment.

Good thing to..... BCOs also have control over the structural integrity of foundations, walls and roofs helping to reduce the number of buildings that collapse. They also do their best to ensure drains are safe and not a heath hazard.

No-one can deny the value and importance of some of the Building Regs, and hence those (e.g. BCOs) who oversee them. However, as for the point to which you were responding, as I said at the time, I don't really believe that, in general, it's even true. As far as I can make out, most LAs would really like there to be no notifications of electrical work (and maybe many other types of work as well) - i.e. for most/all work to be dealt with by self-certification. Indeed, over the years since Part P appeared, many LAs have been critisised for discouraging DIY etc. electrical work - e.g. by setting excessive fees and/or by spreading disinformation.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

But because we are in a small minority I do hate it when I am tainted with the same brush as any other DIYer as being imediately judged as incompetant.

As I said before, although it is frustrating, one has to make allowances for the difficulties people have in assessing us - and it's far far more difficult to decide that someone is in the 'reasonably competant' small minority than it is to see that they are not competent. I would hope that many people in this forum now accept that, at least in terms of domestic scenarios, I have at least as much relevant knowledge (about design/construction/testing of installations, underlying principles and regs) and facilities (testing equipment etc.) as do a good few practising electricians and therefore that I am, in those senses, probably reasonably competent/safe to undertake electrical work - the only thing I really lack is their volume of experience. However, it probably took many months, and probably 1000+ posts from me before many people would actually have accepted/believed that.

Having said that, the fact that it takes them time to 'assess' us obviously does not justify a default assumption that we are all incompetent, and certainly does not justify condescending and/or rude responses to our questions and comments.

On one specific issue...

I asked on a forum initially about what building control will likely do in this situation as I havent notified a full rewire before.. normally here they charge £200, inspect at first fix, then test when finished... and so they inspect the chases before I plaster in as first fix inspection.

To the best of my knowledge, most (perhaps all) LAs seem to have just one standard fee for notification of electrical work, regardless of the nature or extent of the work. This is perhaps one of the greatest criticisms, and one of the reasons why people ignore notification - since it's pretty ridiculous to have to same the same full fee for, say, adding one light to an existing circuit in a bathroom/kitchen as for a full house re-wire.

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

I think this 'I beleve I am a brilliant DIYER, so should really just be treated as if I am a professional' argument has any relevance here.

The post refers to notification nad this has 2 options - a pro can register and self-certify a diyer (or non-registered pro) can notify the LABC directly. The decision to ignore the LABC is personal.

 

[EFLImpudence]

I don't want to be intentionally awkward but how do we know?

also mentioned that the 9.5Kw shower was under rated on a 6mm cable.

Slip of the 'pen'?

and that the kitchen when using some appliances it trips out the electrics (checked and not an appliance fault)

Not necessarily a sign of poor work.

these things arent right... I know this.

Then I got the standard response from 1 poster... "are you a sparky?" completely unrelated to my question, had I really showed incompetance? by listing things which to me seem wrong and a breach of regulation.

Perhaps.

 

[JohnW2]

I think this 'I beleve I am a brilliant DIYER, so should really just be treated as if I am a professional' argument has any relevance here. The post refers to notification nad this has 2 options - a pro can register and self-certify a diyer (or non-registered pro) can notify the LABC directly. The decision to ignore the LABC is personal.

If you're refering to the initial topic of this thread (which I started), then I agree totally - and the main reason I started the thread was because I totally agree with you that a decision to "ignore LABC" (well, to ignore the legal requirement for notification, when such exists) is 'personal' - and none of the business of, and of no importance to, those who answer questions here (unless, of course, the question is about notification!). All that should matter to such people is their perception of the questioner's knowledge and competence, not their attitude to the law.

In the post to which you are responding, I was responding to comments about the way in which some people in some of these forums assume that all DIYers are necessarily lacking in knowledge, skills or competence (or worse). As I said, I can fully understand that it is very difficult to assess the level of competence of a 'newcomer' - but, as is so often said, one should never "assume" (in eitehr direction).

Kind Regards, John.

 

[JohnW2]

I don't want to be intentionally awkward but how do we know?

Exactly my point, and I sympathise. You have no way of assessing forum members other than by looking at the words they type - which is why I have been 'warning' people that 'slips of the pen', 'a few ill-chosen words' or incorrect use of terminology can do an awful lot to make readers doubt the knowldge, competence or whatever of a poster, regardless of how knowledgeable and competent they may be.

Kind Regards, John