Forum Attitude to Non-Notification

[EFLImpudence]

I may end up in a corner from the legal point of view but I have been stating what I would do - as a tradesman.

I don't particularly mind the DIYer doing 'simple' work which technically may be illegal or against what the Nanny State may have intended.

I don't think I have ever advised on matters which could be deemed dangerous but merely on how to replace what is already there and how to ensure it is done correctly.

Cookers and lighting seem to be prominent with my advice limited to informing the poster of which cable and accessories to use for the installation they have which would leave the situation no less safe than it was before but safer than it may have been had they used the wrong cable plus of course the theoretical discussions.

However, the problem with testing remains.
Even if the DIYer has used what was advised and it 'cannot be unsafe' (as far as cable csa and length and installation method are concerned) without the proper testing he will not know if he has made a mistake.

I do not give advice to the obvious 'idiot' who wants to do what he obviously does not understand but will not accept.

Must I stay in the corner?

 

[JohnW2]

I may end up in a corner from the legal point of view but I have been stating what I would do - as a tradesman. I don't particularly mind the DIYer doing 'simple' work which technically may be illegal or against what the Nanny State may have intended. I don't think I have ever advised on matters which could be deemed dangerous but merely on how to replace what is already there and how to ensure it is done correctly.

Whether you call it 'talking yourself into a corner' or 'trying to sit on the fence', I think you probably do have a bit of a problem - because you theoretically can't "have it both ways". As I said, the testing either is, or is not, necessary for "the work to be done correctly/safely (and 'legally')", and that is regardless of who does the work. Are you perhaps suggesting that (in contrast with 'the law') your personal view is that it's reasonable/'OK' for different standards to be expected of electricians and non-electricians?

However, the problem with testing remains. Even if the DIYer has used what was advised and it 'cannot be unsafe' (as far as cable csa and length and installation method are concerned) without the proper testing he will not know if he has made a mistake.

Exactly - see above. I wonder if you are managing to comfort yourself by denying the existance of the fence upon which you may be sitting?

I do not give advice to the obvious 'idiot' who wants to do what he obviously does not understand but will not accept.

I guess that's probably the first reaction of most of us, but ultimately one gets back to the 'lesser of the evils' situation. For example, if you were watching someone (some idiot) who, despite all your advice and warnings, was about to take some metal bolt cutters to his meter tails (and clearly wasn't going to be deterred), wouldn't you feel inclined to say something like "at least put some rubber gloves on" - or would you feel more inclined to thumb through the Yellow Pages looking for a good undertaker whilst watching him do it?!

Kind Regards, John

 

[martinxxxxxx]

Fetch a broom (is standard procedure)

 

[EFLImpudence]

Are you perhaps suggesting that (in contrast with 'the law') your personal view is that it's reasonable/'OK' for different standards to be expected of electricians and non-electricians?

I am not sure 'expected' is the correct word - probably 'accepted'.
Different standards WILL be applied by people who do not have the equipment, physical or mental.

Whether your pragmatic help or Bas' list of links is offered is a choice repliers have.

If a DIYer risks danger doing it himself then that is up to him and not my problem but if I am working in someone's house then I will ensure that I do everything by the book.

Only last week I came across an immersion heater with reversed polarity (at the switch load side). I don't know who did it. It was a simple mistake but it was obviously not tested and was a fault that no amount of sympathetic assistance would have avoided.

Exactly - see above. I wonder if you are managing to comfort yourself by denying the existance of the fence upon which you may be sitting?

I don't see, apart from a complete ban on DIY, a way of getting off the fence.
Should someone ask "which wire is live? Is it the brown or blue?" what do we do? Give a one word answer or refuse to answer?

I guess that's probably the first reaction of most of us, but ultimately one gets back to the 'lesser of the evils' situation. For example, if you were watching someone (some idiot) who, despite all your advice and warnings, was about to take some metal bolt cutters to his meter tails (and clearly wasn't going to be deterred), wouldn't you feel inclined to say something like "at least put some rubber gloves on" - or would you feel more inclined to thumb through the Yellow Pages looking for a good undertaker whilst watching him do it?!

I would not mention the gloves. I would not comment further after, perhaps, some sarcasm.


It is quite a comfortable fence in a corner but where else is there to sit?

 

[JohnW2]

Are you perhaps suggesting that (in contrast with 'the law') your personal view is that it's reasonable/'OK' for different standards to be expected of electricians and non-electricians?

I am not sure 'expected' is the correct word - probably 'accepted'. Different standards WILL be applied by people who do not have the equipment, physical or mental.

That, of course, is essentially the 'pragmatic' view. The question is whether you personally believe that the non-electricians' standards are "adequately safe" and the electrician's standards "even safer", or whether you feel that the non-electricians' ones are "not acceptably safe". In terms of the law, do you think that the non-electrician's standards (e.g. inability to test) do, or do not, represent "making reasonable provision ... to protect persons ... from fire or injury"?

If a DIYer risks danger doing it himself then that is up to him and not my problem but if I am working in someone's house then I will ensure that I do everything by the book.

Indeed - but, as above, that doesn't directly address the question of whether it is "acceptably safe" for someone (else) to undertake work without being able to undertake tests required 'per the book'. It could be that 'the book' requires a standard which is higher than that which mighyt be consdiered "acceptable".

I don't see, apart from a complete ban on DIY, a way of getting off the fence.

That's the dilemma. Of course, if one really believes that 'formal testing' is necessary in order to 'make reasonable provision to protect...' in relation to virtually any electrical work (from socket replacement upwards) then, of course, the vast majority of DIY electrical work is already 'banned' by law (well, at least, is unlawful). However, I think many would argue that such a view is rather OTT.

Should someone ask "which wire is live? Is it the brown or blue?" what do we do? Give a one word answer or refuse to answer?

Good question. BAS would, if he stuck to his stated policy, presumably refuse. What is your view? To my mind, it would be churlish to refuse to answer a question so simple that the answer could be obtained from Mr Google in a few seconds.

It is quite a comfortable fence in a corner but where else is there to sit?

If it's comfortable, then that presumably must mean that you have reached a personal decision as to the extent you are prepared to assist people, even if you doubt their abilities and/or if (as will often/usually be the case) you strongly suspect that they will not be able to undertake testing which you would consdier necessary if you were doing the work.

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

In terms of the law, do you think that the non-electrician's standards (e.g. inability to test) do, or do not, represent "making reasonable provision ... to protect persons ... from fire or injury"?

If, as I think, you agreed earlier that testing is required by the wording of part P then, clearly, they do not.

Indeed - but, as above, that doesn't directly address the question of whether it is "acceptably safe" for someone (else) to undertake work without being able to undertake tests required 'per the book'. It could be that 'the book' requires a standard which is higher than that which might be consdered "acceptable".

As my analogy to not checking for a gas leak - (most) people do not realise that there are any electrical tests therefore their work cannot be (proved) safe.
They may have done it safely without knowing that they have - or not.

That's the dilemma. Of course, if one really believes that 'formal testing' is necessary in order to 'make reasonable provision to protect...' in relation to virtually any electrical work (from socket replacement upwards) then, of course, the vast majority of DIY electrical work is already 'banned' by law (well, at least, is unlawful). However, I think many would argue that such a view is rather OTT.

I didn't write the law but isn't that what it says?
If not, how would it be achieved? Just by being ever so careful ?

Good question. BAS would, if he stuck to his stated policy, presumably refuse. What is your view? To my mind, it would be churlish to refuse to answer a question so simple that the answer could be obtained from Mr Google in a few seconds.

If it was being asked as part of some work question I would refuse.
Rather a lot of posters do not seem to have heard of Google.

If it's comfortable, then that presumably must mean that you have reached a personal decision as to the extent you are prepared to assist people, even if you doubt their abilities

I would not assist if I doubted their abilities.

and/or if (as will often/usually be the case) you strongly suspect that they will not be able to undertake testing which you would consider necessary if you were doing the work.

I think I have already answered that one.

Perhaps I am actually more pragmatic than you in realising what posters are going to do but am just less inclined to assist those I consider inept.

 

[scousespark]

The original post questioned compliance with Part P (which hasn't banned DIY electrical work). If a DIYER doesn't want to notify, that's their business, not mine.

Any electrician will test the circuit. If not, HOW does he/she know it's safe. BAS regularly states that a DIYER should work to the standards followed by a professional. I can't see any arguments against this.

 

[JohnW2]

Perhaps I am actually more pragmatic than you in realising what posters are going to do but am just less inclined to assist those I consider inept.

I don't know about more pragmatic than me, but it does sound as if you are being more pragmatic than I thought you were. If I understand correctly, you're saying that you believe that Part P requires fairly 'extensive' testing (hence making most DIY work, particularly minor work, unlawful) and also that, quite apart from the law, such testing is required is order to achieve an acceptable degree of safety - but, despite that, you are prepared to offer advice as to how to do the work to people, a high proportion of whom is not not going to be able to do that testing - provided that you do not get the feeling that they are inept. That, indeed, sounds pretty pragmatic.

The 'inept' bit is an added complication. Believe me, I'm also very disinclined to assist them - but, on a individual-case 'risk assessment' basis, may feel that I have little option if I believe that they are determined to proceeed (despite my advice to the contrary) and that they might well be even more inept/unsafe without my advice than with it.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

The original post questioned compliance with Part P (which hasn't banned DIY electrical work).

See below.

If a DIYER doesn't want to notify, that's their business, not mine.

Precisely - and that's exactly my view. That's why, in my original post, I was asking why BAS so often asks posters about notification (even though it's none of our business) - and, in particular, how he would react if a poster was honest enough to say that they didn't intend to notify, even though they knew that were legally required to.

Any electrician will test the circuit. If not, HOW does he/she know it's safe. BAS regularly states that a DIYER should work to the standards followed by a professional. I can't see any arguments against this.

If one takes that position, then the reality is that, whilst not 'banning' DIY work, Part P has effectively rendered illegal the great majority of DIY electrical work which is done - ironically, particularly in relation to the more minor of works. Very very few DIYers undertaking minor jobs (and asking for advice here) will have the means (kit or knowledge) to undertake all the tests an electrician would undertake.

It sounds as if you are expressing the view that minor electrical DIY work should not be undertaken by anyone who does not have the facilities and knowledge both to undertake and interpret testing (as well as execution of the job) to the same extent/standard as would an electrician. Is that your view and, if so, (a) do you accept that this effectively means that virtually no minor electrical work should be undertaken by non-electricians and (b) what do you see as the point of a forum such as this - just to tell (the vast majority of) people not to do the work themselves, or what?

Kind Regards, John

 

[EFLImpudence]

Minimum tools required for DIY electrical work.

 

[JohnW2]

Minimum tools required for DIY electrical work.

As I've been saying, the first item there disqualifies most minor DIY electrical work and probably virtually all minor DIY electrical work that results in questions being asked in this forum (it is very unlikely that those with such a bit of kit would be asking basic questions about minor jobs). If you regard those items as 'the minimum', do you therefore feel that we should answer almost everyone by telling then that they shouldn't attempt the work about which they have asked a question?

Kind Regards, John.

 

[EFLImpudence]

what do you see as the point of a forum such as this - just to tell (the vast majority of) people not to do the work themselves, or what?

The forum has been around longer than part P.

I think it has been accepted that the fact that DIYers are not going to be able to test properly means that they cannot actually do the work 'legally'.

However, this does not prevent us, for example, telling them that they should use 4mm² flex (on 32A circuit) to connect the oven to an existing circuit or...
how to reconnect their lights or...
how to replace an appliance or accessory.

Whilst no testing will be done it still results in the work being safer than it otherwise would.

Should a poster ask how do I replace my consumer unit they are soon advised/warned of the position and and attempts made to dissuade them from continuing.
The large number of posters asking if they can run the cables and get an electrician to connect and certify are soon told the true position.

It depends on what is actually considered DIY.

I don't think the situation is as bad as you believe.

 

[JohnW2]

what do you see as the point of a forum such as this - just to tell (the vast majority of) people not to do the work themselves, or what?

I think it has been accepted that the fact that DIYers are not going to be able to test properly means that they cannot actually do the work 'legally'. However, this does not prevent us, for example, telling them that they should use 4mm² flex (on 32A circuit) to connect the oven to an existing circuit or... how to reconnect their lights or... how to replace an appliance or accessory. ... Whilst no testing will be done it still results in the work being safer than it otherwise would.

I agree totally - that is my 'pragmatic approach ... but why, given what you say above, have you just posted a message in which you indicate your belief that the "Minimum tools required for DIY electrical work" (your emboldening, not mine) includes something which you know will not be possessed by the vast majority of people who ask fairly basic questions here?? What exactly do you mean by "Minimum"?

I don't think the situation is as bad as you believe.

I don't know about 'bad', but don't you see any inconsistencies in what you're saying - per the above?

Kind Regards, John

 

[scousespark]

The original post questioned compliance with Part P (which hasn't banned DIY electrical work).

See below.

If a DIYER doesn't want to notify, that's their business, not mine.

Precisely - and that's exactly my view. That's why, in my original post, I was asking why BAS so often asks posters about notification (even though it's none of our business) - and, in particular, how he would react if a poster was honest enough to say that they didn't intend to notify, even though they knew that were legally required to.

Any electrician will test the circuit. If not, HOW does he/she know it's safe. BAS regularly states that a DIYER should work to the standards followed by a professional. I can't see any arguments against this.

If one takes that position, then the reality is that, whilst not 'banning' DIY work, Part P has effectively rendered illegal the great majority of DIY electrical work which is done - ironically, particularly in relation to the more minor of works. Very very few DIYers undertaking minor jobs (and asking for advice here) will have the means (kit or knowledge) to undertake all the tests an electrician would undertake.

It sounds as if you are expressing the view that minor electrical DIY work should not be undertaken by anyone who does not have the facilities and knowledge both to undertake and interpret testing (as well as execution of the job) to the same extent/standard as would an electrician. Is that your view and, if so, (a) do you accept that this effectively means that virtually no minor electrical work should be undertaken by non-electricians and (b) what do you see as the point of a forum such as this - just to tell (the vast majority of) people not to do the work themselves, or what?

Kind Regards, John

I am not saying only qualified electricians should be allowed to do electrical installation, just that there is no justification for saying there should be different requirements for DIY vs professional. I am not saying they need a full set of quals, but should understand the basics. For testing, there are books and hire shops. You don't need 239x to understand the significance of the readings, just knowledge of what readings to expect. The minimum would be a loop and RCD test.

 

[EFLImpudence]

but why, given what you say above, have you just posted a message in which you indicate your belief that the "Minimum tools required for DIY electrical work" (your emboldening, not mine) includes something which you know will not be possessed by the vast majority of people who ask fairly basic questions here?? What exactly do you mean by "Minimum"?

It was 'tongue-in-cheek' - laughing smiley.

I don't think the situation is as bad as you believe.

I don't know about 'bad', but don't you see any inconsistencies in what you're saying - per the above?

Not really.

As long as their additions or alterations are correct (as in my above examples) then the forum is still valid and beneficial to the DIYer and will result in an installation being no less safe than it was before.