Gas Safe boiler failure

[Rekusu]

What ho one and all,

First a bit of background.

I own a maisonette, current rented out, which has a Potterton Kingfisher boiler. It regularly passes its annual Gas Safe test, usually with what appears to be flying colours.

On Dec 24, the tenant phoned in panic as the CO alarm had activated. She turned the incoming gas off and called the emergency gas people, who arrived and disconnected the boiler. I swung by a very local gas engineering company and they had a free engineer who came immediately and ran some tests. He found that the flue gas was registering 0ppm so figured that the alarm (or its batteries) was at fault. I replaced the alarm and all was fine.

He offered to fill out a Gas Safe certificate as the new one was due mid Jan 2016, but as I had already booked and pre-paid someone to do this, I declined.

Jan 4, the Gas Safe guy came and found that the flue gas reading was around 500 - 600 ppm and closed the boiler down. This guy is not an 'engineer' as such, but from a franchise (company) who specialise in testing domestic gas equipment but not servicing.

Anyway, I went back to the Dec 24 company and had a whinge; the same engineer was free so returned to have a look and service the boiler. This time, he found a flue gas reading of about the same (500ppm). During the service, the only fault he could find was an excess of dust around the fine air intake filter mesh. There was no flue blockage and no flue gas leaking anywhere. Post cleaning flue gas readings came in at 11 - 14 ppm, so he issued the annual pass certificate.

He had brought his meter and a newer version to double check but was unable to use the newer one as it had a different interface and this probe would not fit.

I am now querying the invoice for the first visit, since he could have issued a pass certificate when it subsequently appears that the boiler was giving excess CO. The company are of course not happy!

Given that the certificate is really only good at the time of the reading, how likely is it that a boiler can go from 0ppm to 500 ppm in 10 days? How likely is it that an old style boiler can be giving a reading of 0ppm? If he had issued a certificate on Dec 24 and subsequently there was a medical problem due to excess CO (the tenants have a small child!), who would be responsible since I would have fulfilled the legal obligations?

I will be happy to pay the servicing and certificate issue fee, but at the moment, not the Dec24. / CO alarm ringing / 0ppm reading check fee. Where do I stand?

Many thanks for reading all this.

Rex

 

[gas112]

So basically the first company got you out the sh#te got your heating working for your tenant on xmas eve , you have since seen how a bit of dust can affect a reading .That dust could have settled in just the right place during that ten days .
And you are now quibbling about there bill
Oh and i see like a lot of landlords your actual company dont service the boiler yearly and just take readings do you think thats safe for your tenant or does it just suit your pocket

 

[Rekusu]

Thank you for your considered reply. For your information, I am not a company, and only own this maisonette because I lived in it before moving to a larger house and did not sell.

But I see your point that dust could have settled in the intervening ten days. However, back to my question, if the first company had done a service and issued a certificate, and ten days later dust blocks something and causes an excess of CO, which in turn causes a health problem, who would be legally responsible?

And if your assertion that a boiler can go from 0ppm to 500ppm in ten days, then absolutely no Gas Safe certificate is of any use.

 

[gas112]

I mean the company you normally use why would you use a company who dont service your appliance for the safety of your tenants .
And if first company had been allowed to service it and issue cert which you refused then there would be little to no chance of dust being in there .
Every cert and reading is a snap shot of what is happening at that time not a day week or a year later

 

[Aquaheat]

But I see your point that dust could have settled in the intervening ten days. However, back to my question, if the first company had done a service and issued a certificate, and ten days later dust blocks something and causes an excess of CO, which in turn causes a health problem, who would be legally responsible?

IF the first company did all that they were required to do and is documented and 10 days later dust was to block an air intake then it would be up to the HSE to determine if the engineer was negligent (very doubtful if he has followed procedure)
IF there were to be a health problem then the CO detector may have been faulty or poorly maintained then you would be responsible.
IF the CO alarm went off and the customer was to do as previously did and isolate gas supply then there would be no issue.
IF the tenant heard the CO alarm and continued to use the appliances or removed the batteries then the tenant would be negligent.
As you can see there are too many IFs, BUTs and MAYBEs to even consider laying any responsibility unless the situation did occur and an investigation takes place.

And if your assertion that a boiler can go from 0ppm to 500ppm in ten days, then absolutely no Gas Safe certificate is of any use.

It is exactly the same as a cars MOT certificate. It only passes safety at the time of the test. As soon as an engineer leaves the premises we have no idea what has been done to affect the operation of an appliance. We can give advise on possible future problems and if those problems are serious enough we can issue an At Risk notice which you still do not have to isolate the appliance or an Immediately Dangerous notice which again you don't have to isolate but we can then report to the Gas supplier and have them forcibly isolate the appliance.

The first engineer and company did exactly as you requested on both visits as did the engineer who did the second visit. Who's to say that the second visit didn't stir up some loose dust and hair etc when he performed his duties and caused the blockage?

Pay the bill, you haven't a leg to stand on and they are perfectly within their rights to charge you for their visit. They got your tenant heat and hot water over Xmas with minimal fuss and saved you a massive headache in the process.

Get your wallet out and pay up. Scrooge season has passed now.

Jon

 

[Newboy]

And if your assertion that a boiler can go from 0ppm to 500ppm in ten days, then absolutely no Gas Safe certificate is of any use.

In much the same way as your annual MOT only tells you what the state of the vehicle was on the day of the test - if your brakes fail 5 days later then is that the fault of the MOT tester?

Surely as a responsible landlord the boiler should be serviced and a Landlords Cert issued annually

 

[Rekusu]

OK, got it! Thanks to all

 

[snes]

Your engineer deserves some praise at the very least for coming out to you on the 24th!

 

[Rekusu]

Have to agree with that!

 

[gas112]

of course you do that why you dont want to pay and have tried to get him in the sh'te i would hate to see you being ungrateful

 

[Rekusu]

I'm not refusing, just querying the Invoice, since on day one (and I am grateful that he resolved the issue for the tenant, he got a reading of 0ppm and 10 days later, the Gas Safe cert guy and then the same engineer as day one, both got reading that showed CO to be at dangerous levels.

I agree that a certificate is only good for the time of the test, but if that is the case, then PAT tests, annual Gas Safe certs, MOTs etc should be done every day to ensure that the item being tested is safe all the time!

 

[Dan Robinson]

I'm not refusing, just querying the Invoice

The point being?

 

[Aquaheat]

I agree that a certificate is only good for the time of the test, but if that is the case, then PAT tests, annual Gas Safe certs, MOTs etc should be done every day to ensure that the item being tested is safe all the time!

Not at all, thats what the advisories are for. Things noted down that may cause you issue in the future.

A car has an annual service as well as an MOT. The service is to ensure that it runs trouble free and safely. The MOT verifies this.

As such your boiler should have an annual service too. You don't do this only a safety check. What do you do to ensure that it is going to continue to work safely? You only requested a service of the boiler on the third visit. You were offered it on the first and declined, then you had a safety check on the second. Why not a service? Did your guy not see the dust? If anyone is in the wrong here it is you for not carrying out regular servicing of appliances in a tenanted property!

There are millions of boilers in the UK that are serviced and inspected every year and this is always going to have the odd one or two that will develop an fault the day after its service. Its just a case that you have been unlucky on this occasion.

Suck it up, Pay up and thank the other company for coming out so quickly on Xmas eve and ensuring that your tenant had heat and hot water. Maybe even throw in a tip for the guy and get your appliances serviced every year instead of penny pinching and then complaining about how a bill comes in higher when you eventually have a problem.

Jon

 

[Rekusu]

Purely for the purposes of this thread, I do agree with you.

However, based upon the checking procedure only being correct at the point of the test, is there not the chance that the testing meter, which is after all, only a portable electronic device, and we know that anything electronic can go wrong, was not working correctly at the time of the first test. It had a check date that was about nine months ago when it was last calibrated.

I am not arguing that the engineer made a mistake but his information is only as good as his equipment, and neither he nor I know if it was correct. It was presumably correct nine months ago.

 

[TCCHeating]

I am not arguing that the engineer made a mistake but his information is only as good as his equipment, and neither he nor I know if it was correct. It was presumably correct nine months ago.

That's something that is impossible to prove of disprove I'm afraid. As far as the engineer is concerned. His instrument was within calibration. So as far as you are concerned there is no way you can dispute it. Have you paid yet?