Guttering dispute with next door neighbour

[station1212]

Sorry Gerry
Ive never uploaded a pic on here before so i think ive resent some of the pics a few times..
Picture 1 . Is google earth pic from oct 2014 , 5 months before we did the gutters ...Shows next doors gutter ( on right hand side property) falling down from right hand side to left ..
Pic 2. Was taken by and sent to insyrers by guy next door ..He says to show how we pulled his gutter down ..Goggle earth shows different !!!!
3. Ignore pictures 3 / 4 / 5 / 6 and 7 as they were duplicates sent in error
4. Picture 8 shows his guttering at the front running in all directions...It actually looks like there are bends in the guttering but this is just an optical illusion as cast wont bend or warp !!!
5.Picture 9 shows the rusty six inch nail he banged into his rafters end to support his guttering !!!! It also shows ( but you have to zoom in to see it ) a black cast bracket taken from our side of the property and fitted on the end of his guttering to support it...You can also see that by fitting the packing and bracket that this has lifted his guttering approx an inch off his rusty nail .......
6. I didnt attach the last picture but i think this picture is the most damning of the lot. If you look closely you will see his gutter dipping down to the left where it joins onto his UPVC down spout..You can also see no other brackets supporting the entire length of that peice of cast !!! You can also see that it has dropped so much that it is pushing the next length along upwards and off the bracket that is meant to be supporting it..Carry along to the next length and you can see that its pushing the last length of cast down at the beginning and upwards on the far side !!!I beleive these pictures to show the state of his guttering and it jsut amazes me how the "surveyor" didnt comment in his report to the insurers just how badly maintained their clients guttering was !!!!!
Picture 9

 

[station1212]

You Know Gerry we can all look at a picture and see different things
Example ...look at the picture ive just attached and most people see a guy showing his backside to his baby...If you look closer you can see its a bald father giving his daughter a kiss !!!!

Dont know what the "surveyor" saw when he looked at the pictures because he seemed to miss a lot !!!!

 

[Mikefromlondon]

I see a shallow pond on that bay window roof top, and I see a big green gutter sagging in the middle due to its own gravity pulling the earth upwards, and that joint seems like it is a fire escape for the little ants.

 

[station1212]

Wow Mike
Thats some imagination you have

Are your observations good or bad ??
Do you agree that the pictures show how knackered his guttering was ??

 

[chappers]

So your saying that they are trying to get you to pay not only for all his guttering , but also new fascias and soffits too.
Tell them to do one in the strongest terms or alternatively just use two words, you know the ones, I'm sure.

 

[station1212]

Thanks chappers ...so you think the pictures are strong enough to challenge the insurerance

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Station, You need not worry mate, pictures are clear enough to show the state of his gutters prior to your renewing your gutter, there was no soffit, and his gutters were sagging and supporting brackets were inadequate, in one place as you said a 6" nail was used to support cast iron gutter, and in any case the gutter has to slop towards the center shared downpipe, otherwise water from both his roof and your roof could run back towards his side.

You have not caused any damage to his side, instead you actually strengthened it more by providing him with a proper bracket where that nail was.

Your neighbour has devious intentions, as he couldn't bear the fact that you renewed your side of the gutter and his one looked old & worn out with flaking paint, with sections sagging and poorly joined, and although your roofer may have disturbed it a little causing one or two joints to start leaking, but your responsibility would have been only to fix any leaking joints, not the cost of a new gutter and new soffit.

You owe him nothing, just tell them that you will see them in a court as you have proof of the state of his gutters prior to your roofer started work on it, backed by photographic evidence from Google street images.

The water collected by your gutter had to fall into his gutter hence it needs to be lower than yours, and his gutter has to have an end cap, but was your old gutter joined together in a same level as his to the funnel and the downpipe?

I can see obviously you had to raise your gutter over his as yours is PVC and his was old cast iron , so you couldn't have easily connected to the funnel at the same level as the sections would be incompatible, or different shapes, but you could have improvised a solution of some kind, where two different shaped gutters meet and one can improvise a little bodged joint but effective using mastics and what not.

He is probably pi55ed that your new gutter now falls into his rather than a joint in at a same level.

In any case, He should have warned you of his intentions that either you put his gutter right, at your expense since your roofer mate may have damaged his side, failing which he may get his own roofer and have it fixed and send you the bill, he should have done this in writing, so that you could have had the benefit of engaging your own roofer/builder to fix any problems, but this devious guy is taking a possible advantage of a small fixable problem that you may have caused and giving you a bill for a brand new gutter that no way i would pay for, at the most you might want to volunteer to pay some small payment like how much it would have cost you to send your own roofer to have his gutter fixed for any leaks but you are no way responsible to have it replaced at your expense.

At the most you may have to share the cost of a new down pipe and the funnel section with him, that is just about it.

Besides, how much did you pay for your entire gutter? how does that compare to his claim of £5K, he is taking a pi$$
and have you got any latest photos of yours and his new gutter together for us to see?

You really need not lose your sleep, he took it upon himself to replace his gutter at his own expense and later on tried to see if he might be able to claim it back from his insurance by lying to them that you broke it, he is an insurance fraudster.

 

[chappers]

Thanks chappers ...so you think the pictures are strong enough to challenge the insurerance

I would say that the single google earth image from 2014 would be sufficient to show that the gutter was already dropped would be sufficient. Maybe couple that up with your picture showing it is in the same place after you carried out your work.
As I said your focus should just be directed at showing you didn't cause the alleged damage, maybe coupled with the fact that they are trying to land you with a bill that was for betterment of your neighbours property. But to be honest I would keep that in case they decide to push you.
With your evidence any solicitor should be advising their client that they have very little chance of winning this in court given the evidence presented.

 

[tony1851]

@op- just a quick thought; during any correspondence, don't argue over the cost. Clearly £5K is ridiculous, but arguing the point is part-way to admitting that you feel responsible, whereas you should be disputing liability.

 

[station1212]

Thank you to mike , chappers and tony for your thoughts ..I really appreciate your time spent replying

 

[chappers]

@op- just a quick thought; during any correspondence, don't argue over the cost. Clearly £5K is ridiculous, but arguing the point is part-way to admitting that you feel responsible, whereas you should be disputing liability.

^^^This

In the first instance I would keep it short and sweet. Something along the lines of;

I don't admit any liability for the alleged damage claimed in the surveyors report, page x. para. x and I enclose photographic evidence picture 1, from google earth dated 2014 to show that the guttering was already in this dropped position, I also enclose a photo from <insert date> which clearly shows the guttering in the same un-altered position, following the completion of my works.
I trust that this put's an end to this matter.

Yours faithfully
Mr Station1212

As Tony says don't start going into any other details until you receive a reply, if they continue to contest the matter, and then only reply to any specific claims they make. At this point you may consider replying via your solicitor to show you mean business.
Have you checked to see if you have any legal cover via your own home insurance.

 

[station1212]

Hi chappers

That's good advice

I haven't spoken to my insurance company as I'm assuming that if I go to them their response may be
" they will sort it out but then chase my stepson for the £5000 bill"
And as I'm 100% certain we haven't damaged next doors guttering so why would I even consider any option that meant to next doors insurers being paid a penny ....
I was going to contact his insurers this week and ask for their builders "surveyor " to confirm that next doors guttering was in sound, well maintained order upon his visit...as soon as I have that confirmation I can go straight back and prove that was certainly not the case... And pour scorn on his report even further !!!

 

[chappers]

I was going to contact his insurers this week and ask for their builders "surveyor " to confirm that next doors guttering was in sound, well maintained order upon his visit...as soon as I have that confirmation I can go straight back and prove that was certainly not the case... And pour scorn on his report even further !!!

Don't do that and particularly not at this stage. Stick to the facts at hand and as said much earlier in the thread the condition of his guttering is pretty irrelevant to their claims that you caused damage.
Some of that might become relevant if they persist, but await any further accusations before replying as you could be furnishing them with details that they may use to make further accusations against you.
At no stage in proceedings, mention anything that isn't contained within the surveyors report, that is their sole piece of evidence, particularly since his guttering has now been replaced. You always use your documented evidence to counter their claims.
Just keep it simple.
You claim I caused x damage, here is the evidence I didn't.
If you want to confirm anything before refuting their claim , you could write asking them to confirm exactly what damage they claim you have done.

 

[Mikefromlondon]

Absolutely, you have to stand firm and dismiss any claim what so ever, you had done nothing to his gutter, it is simple as that, don't even mention the bracket you provided for supporting his gutter instead of that 6" nail. So you are absolutely not responsible for any damage to his gutter, it was old and it fell to pieces, and don't even whisper to your insurance company about this dispute, they will only put your premium up regardless of blame. Your neighbour has no leg to stand on, he has to prove that it was damaged by you and not any other element or by his surveyor or whoever came to look at his gutter.

Why on earth did he not consult you or sent you a notice of intention for a claim against you prior to start of any work. Without your written agreement that you were responsible and that you would pay for any damage caused, he simply cannot give you an unexpected bill. When you see your neighbour, just smile at him.

 

[station1212]

Hi chappers and mike

Thanks for your thoughts again

Chappers You said the condition of his guttering was pretty irrelavant to their claims I caused his damage

Surely if I can prove his guttering was knackered the that will prove it should not have been replaced with brand new, and if their surveyor responds saying his guttering was in sound well maintained condition then we can prove it certainly wasn't !!

The surveyor is stuffed really because if he says it was in good condition then I can shoot him down in flames and he can't come back and say it was knackered or the insurers would want to know why he suggested replacing it at the insurers expense !!!

Would you both agree ??