Heat Banks

Gordon, how long does the accumulator last before the flow drops off?
Who made the plate heat X and what model? Looks like a Swep (Swedish)
 
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Problem we have is ours is a 70's property with only 15mm incoming townswater, so accumulator was essential if we were to use mains pressure and flow to shower with.
Blue plastic mains pipe upgrade not really an option.
Stopcock is 15mm, through the water meter which must slow stuff down a bit, then it tees off to existing users with new 22mm run straight under the house to the accumulator with a non return valve, which feeds the store heat exchanger and also the bathroom showers (x2 showers) and bath(x1), as I piped the bathrooms up with two cold feeds - one direct off the mains for basins and toothbrushing, and one via the store/accumulator to keep hot/cold pressure/flow equal for the bath/shower mixer valves.
Overnight, mains/accumulator pressure can rise to just over 4 bar, but is 3 bar or less during the day, after accumulator has recharged.
At that initial 4 bar point the first shower is ace - will pin you to the wall of the shower if you turn it up to full, second shower is fine too, but if the second one is a bit longer, you can really tell when the accumulator runs out of puff - flow drops right off, and watching the pressure gauge at the accumulator, it virtually flatlines as what's then coming in can't match what's needed for the shower. It'd do 2 showers at once, as I've tried filling the bath and showering at once, but pressure won't last more than 5 minutes.
Temp is ok whatever, as the tmv keeps the water at a reasonable temperature before it even gets to the shower mixer - as I said previously, overspec'd is the way to go on the hot water side.
We had a quote for a dualstream accumulator/unvented cyl combo, and that was sized 500/300 ie 500l accumulator - with hindsight, that size would be bulletproof, so an extra 250l accumulator might be squeezed in somewhere at a later date if needed. Pressure of the membrane is just over 2 bar I think, so it fills right up fairly quickly.
Re the plate X - nothing on it, no markings anywhere, and it came unboxed shrinkwrapped to the store. I was told it was swiss-made by Advance, seems as well made as the dinky one in our boiler anyway.
Thanks again for making me think and explore all the options :D

"nice piece of work fella " Ta - was considering a chevy V8 from your fine country - with a pump on the end of the crank a la Jeremy Clarkson's food blender, but the exhaust routing was going to be a right p.i.t.a so we fitted a grundfos instead :oops:
 
gordonpants wrote

Egg sactly. But all you need to do is link one terminal of one stat to a terminal on the other stat - it doesn't need a relay honest - I bought two stats today and checked - in series they're fine.


How did you check?
Fairly certain you need a latching relay in order to hold power on "demand" until the bottom stat is satisfied and the relay is reset ready for the next cycle.
Nice piece of work btw. :D
 
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You're right - I originally thought top stat would be set higher, but it makes sense as BB said to have the top one set low, then charge the store until the lower stat is satisfied - so yes I do now have a relay to hold the boiler on until both stats are happy.
It took ages to suss the relay wiring out - BB said the diagram is on the DPS site - I couldn't find it, and DPS wouldn't tell me either :D
Worth the extra tenner though, as the boiler now only fires when the space heating section of the store is exhausted - still leaves a bit at the top for hot water. Top stat set to 45 degC, bottom stat set to 60, both in the bottom half of the store, level with where the rad circuit is tapped off.
 
Problem we have is ours is a 70's property with only 15mm incoming townswater, so accumulator was essential if we were to use mains pressure and flow to shower with.
Blue plastic mains pipe upgrade not really an option.
Stopcock is 15mm, through the water meter which must slow stuff down a bit, then it tees off to existing users with new 22mm run straight under the house to the accumulator with a non return valve, which feeds the store heat exchanger and also the bathroom showers (x2 showers) and bath(x1), as I piped the bathrooms up with two cold feeds - one direct off the mains for basins and toothbrushing, and one via the store/accumulator to keep hot/cold pressure/flow equal for the bath/shower mixer valves.
Overnight, mains/accumulator pressure can rise to just over 4 bar, but is 3 bar or less during the day, after accumulator has recharged.
At that initial 4 bar point the first shower is ace - will pin you to the wall of the shower if you turn it up to full, second shower is fine too, but if the second one is a bit longer, you can really tell when the accumulator runs out of puff - flow drops right off, and watching the pressure gauge at the accumulator, it virtually flatlines as what's then coming in can't match what's needed for the shower. It'd do 2 showers at once, as I've tried filling the bath and showering at once, but pressure won't last more than 5 minutes.

Use the accumulator for the showers only, does it make any difference if the bath takes a few minutes longer to fill?

The only outlets you need high pressure to is the showers.
 
[quote="BigBurner";p="1072127]
Use the accumulator for the showers only, does it make any difference if the bath takes a few minutes longer to fill?

The only outlets you need high pressure to is the showers.[/quote]

Sounds ideal, but that would surely mean two complete heat exchanger systems, one fed by the accumulator, one fed straight off the mains?
Only other way would be to restrict flow to the bath/sinks - not really worth the effort in my case, I can see the value of prioritising different taps/users elsewhere though.

Live heat bank monitoring looks seriously clever, there's me thinking I'm cutting edge high tech with half a dozen temp gauges scattered about the pipework :oops:
 
Yes, ideally a smaller heat exchanger, parallel to the existing, can be used for just the bath and you can still use just the one pump and flow switch.

The monitoring is neat. When fully on, it shows the stratification and how wide the temperature difference is from top to bottom. The water at the bottom gives very good condensing boiler efficiencies. But in this installation the stratification temp difference could be even wider.

http://www.bacwak.net:8080/public_view.htm?viewId=8

There is a fault on the solar panel installation. The solar panel's return to the cylinder should be tapped into the cylinder at the halfway point or below, not the top of the cylinder. It is clear from the real time data presented that the lower temperature water coming from the solar panel (it is December) is mixing with the higher water temperature at the top of the cylinder generated by the solid fuel stove, and unnecessarily cooling the top of the cylinder. The solar panel does give useful heat (21c in, 42C out on 6th Dec), but it must not compromise the efficient operation of the thermal store.

There is also an fault on the DHW to the plate heat X. Look at the temp above and below the plate. When no DHW draw offs and the DHW outlet is cool, the temperature on the cool side of the plate, before the pump, is high. This indicates no check valve after the DHW plate pump. This cause unnecessary circulation from the top of the store into the middle, through the plate, causing unnecessary mixing, partially destroying stratification.

I'm not sure if the boiler on the diagram is a condensing boiler or not. If not the blending valve in the return to the boiler is necessary to raise the return temperature above dew-point, to prevent condensing.

Having the valve will ensure a one-pass of the cylinder water through the boiler to heat up the cylinder - a very fast re-heat. A blending valve can be fitted using a condensing boiler. If the setpoint of the store is 70C, then find the delta T of the boilers heat X, the makers will tell you on the phone the max it can take - the MI always go on the short side.

So, setpoint of 70C, delta T of 25C, then set blending valve to 45C, boiler stat on maximum. This means 45C minimum, will be returned to the boiler until the temp in the cylinder rises above 45C. The return temp to the boiler will steadily rise as the cylinder heats up. But, it will only get above dew-point (approx 56C) just before setpoint is reached, ensuring a super fast reheat and condensing through approx 90% plus of re-heat. Only water at least 70C will enter the top of the cylinder and the cylinder is heated top down maintaining stratification. The system will never run out DHW as the when the store is exhausted it delivers what the boilers burner can provide (similar to an infinitely continuous combi).

There is a way using a blending valve as a diverter valve. Have this set to 70C and boiler set to 72 to 75C. Have the valve on the boilers flow, with the hot port of the valve (70C) running to the top of the cylinder. The other port of the valve tees into the boilers return to the cylinder, which will be the bottom. Then only water at 70C will enter the cylinder and any water less than 70C will be returned to the boiler to be heated up to 70C.

The solar/solid fuel: Have a high limit stat on the top of the cylinder, set to 95C. Have this also switch in the DHW pump to take heat from the top of the cylinder to the bottom. It just pumps harmlessly through the plate heat X. Gledhill do this.
 
Hi,

Gordon - I've been reading this with some interest after being pointed over from uk.d-i-y USENET group.

Can I ask:

Did you get the cylinder from Advance Appliances in the end (can't quite read the label in your photos).

Could I ask which base model you used, and how much it cost to get any extra tappings added (and if I dare to be so rude, how much the whole cyclinder cost)?

Having looked at 1700 for a suitable unit from DPS and noting similar sized copper vented oridinary cylinders are more in the region of 400-500 quid, plus perhaps 200-300 for pumps, valves and controls, I feel rather inclided to follow your example and make my own.

I'm OK for plumbing and electrical ability - in fact combining some ideas from here and other places I have a precise design in mind including palcement of the tappings. I just need to source a cylinder in the 250l range with extra immersion heater bosses (3 total) and several extra 22mm tappings.

By the way - well done - your's looks an impeccable piece of engineering.

Many thanks

Tim
 
Hi Tim, yes it's Advance Appliances.

Base-model-wise, I'm not sure - it's a 2 coil 300l store, with 4 28mm tappings for the shunt pump and space heating flow returns. There are 5 tappings (I think) for the sensors/stats. The label does say 'customer bespoke specification' on it. Cost-wise, I don't want to tread on anyone's toes as Advance were exceptionally helpful even after delivery and payment - if you really want to know give me a mail on sportleicht AT mail.com - cost was a few hundred less than DPS, including delivery, vat, prv, plate heat exchanger and flowswitch etc etc. No pump, valves or electrical bits - ebay is the place for everything else.
Copper stores I didn't consider, as we needed a sealed system type store, ie not just openvented.

I'd recommend Navitron forums for making me think european/german as well as this forum - thermal stores are very good at getting strong opinions out of people :LOL:

Oh, and get loads of sensor pockets - 5 isn't enough for a stove, solar, twin stats controlling a gas boiler AND extra gauges to tell you how well the store is working. And you *need* gauges :cool:

Thankyou for the compliment regarding the installation. I've plumbed bathrooms, rads etc, all in copper as opposed to lego, but this was way out of my comfort zone. All I did was buy the stuff, do the theory and make the tea - a heating engineer planned the physical layout and plumbed it all in - but I did do the wiring.
 
Hi gordon,

Thanks for your quick reply.

Quick question: Haven't seen a sensor pocket close up - are they a tapping into the cylinder which you screw a dry tube (the pocket) into; or a welded/soldered in dry tube or just a hole in the insulation?

Mine's going to be open vented direct heated, roughly like this:

Tall and thin, about 250l or 300l if I can manage.

Bottom 25-30% of tank by height will have a solar coil *and* solar tappings (so I can choose the style of solar later)

Then, other tappings:

Top + bottom - to DHW plate X (coldest water return is from this, so should go to bottom).

1/3 way down to just above solar coil - radiator circuit (direct, no coils)

Top to just above solar coil - boiler. And an extra tapping at the bottom: until I get solar (if ever) I might as well be able to heat the whole tank from the boiler. I'll put in a diverter valve here.

And 3 cheap ordinary immersion heaters, for 9kW back up when boiler dies.

3 main tank stats - one near top, one just above solar coil and one near bottom. Will be made into a hysteresis loop for boiler demand signal ( relay jobbie) to allow long burns on the boiler.

At least 10 equally spaced places to add small electronic sensors (Dallas 1-wire chips probably - about 3-4 quid each) where I can later knock up a small computer to monitor stratification, along with chip sensors on all flow/returns and select feedback from some of the control circuits (eg DHW flow switch, heating demand, boiler-pump control and boiler demand signals.)

That will be where the fun starts - if computer monitoring indicates the basic electro-mechanical controls are working well, then they stay.

If not, I might play with adding some computer control, with the electro-mechanical controls remaining as failsafe backups.

Cheers

Tim
 
Really interesting thread I'd not seen before,

Gordon,
you're experience of Advance (Graham Engineering Ltd) is far better than mine. We were repeated lied to about delivery times, our cylinder damaged in transit at least six times, will definitely be with you today, at least six times. immersion heaters didn't fit the boss's. The quality isn't that good when compared to something like the Ultrasteel. Then to top it all we got a solicitors letter claiming we hadn't paid for them.

This was a couple of years ago and maybe the d***head we dealt with has gone:evil:

Finding cylinder manufactures prepared to work outside of their standard kit that will deliver on time and as specked is really difficult, we now have one.

BB,

I have to say, when you don't lose the plot, you're worth listening to.
 

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