HIVE Multizone - move upstairs stat?

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Hi all,


after a quick bit of help with Hive here. Had multi-zone installed yesterday by British Gas.


1 receiver and thermostat downstairs in the hall. The previous programmable thermostat was a Danfoss TPOne-M – powered by mains. We had requested during installation that these wires be disconnected in order to have the Hive receiver installed in the garage at the boiler and not the hallway. This wasn’t done and instead the receiver used the old wiring and sits in the hall next to the thermostat.


Upstairs we had a Danfoss TPOne-B which was battery powered but wired to the wall. The engineer swapped out our purchased wireless Hive additional thermostat and receiver and used the old wiring and installed a hard-wired thermostat (with built in receiver); completely defeating the point of getting Hive so we could put the thermostat in the baby’s room and not have it fixed to the master bedroom wall.


Is it unrealistic/not possible to have the engineer:


1) Disconnect the downstairs wiring at the boiler and install the receiver at the boiler?

2) Disconnect the wiring to the upstairs thermostat and instead install a receiver at the boiler to allow us to have a wireless thermostat?


Thanks for any help.
 
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Is it unrealistic/not possible to have the engineer:

1) Disconnect the downstairs wiring at the boiler and install the receiver at the boiler?

2) Disconnect the wiring to the upstairs thermostat and instead install a receiver at the boiler to allow us to have a wireless thermostat?

I'm assuming that you have motorised valves controlling the two heating zones, in which case the thermostats will actually be controlling the motorised valves (not the boiler directly) In this case the receivers are normally located at the wiring centre (usually adjacent to the motorised valves) and the Hive thermostats located where the original thermostats were and communicating with the receivers wirelessly.

This also assumes that your boiler is a combi meaning that you don't have a hot water cylinder that should be being controlled by one of the Hives.

Sounds like a rather lazy install to me, done for the convenience of the installer, not the customer.
 
I'm assuming that you have motorised valves controlling the two heating zones, in which case the thermostats will actually be controlling the motorised valves (not the boiler directly) In which case the receivers would normally be located at the wiring centre (usually adjacent to the motorised valves) and the Hive thermostats located where the original thermostats were and communicating with the receivers wirelessly.

This also assumes that your boiler is a combi meaning that you don't have a hot water cylinder that should be being controlled by one of the Hives.

Sounds like a rather lazy install to me, done for the convenience of the installer, not the customer.

Hi stem, thanks very much for the response.

As with the majority of these posts, I should have included more information in my first post.

The system does have motorised valves on a hot water tank; hot water is controlled by the downstairs thermostat (that has the receiver right next to it in the hallway). I'm hoping to get this receiver moved into the garage - a reasonable request I assume? On the hot water tank are motorised valves that control the heating for the two zones (Kingspan tribune xe pre plumbed).

The upstairs wired thermostat has been put in place of the old thermostat/programmer in the main bedroom - which we didn't want and certainly did not want a wired thermostat. Would it be possible to have a receiver wired next to the hot water tank and have this wired thermostat replaced with a wireless one?

Thanks again for your help.
 
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There are two types of Hive receiver.

The Dual Channel version for one heating zone and hot water.
Dual.JPG



The Single Channel version for the second heating zone.
Single.JPG


You should have one of each type. It can make the wiring slightly more difficult depending upon how the system was originally installed. If originally the hot water separate time control (ie programmer) from the heating control, then it will need rewiring to bring it into the dual channel Hive with one of the heating zones.

What you suggest doesn't sound unreasonable to me, and is sounds like they have re-routed the hot water control to the downstairs Hive already. I think the problem upstairs will be that there wasn't a 240V supply to the original thermostat which was battery operated. A simple solution would to have replaced the original upstairs thermostat receiver with the Hive Single Channel receiver and put the Hive thermostat where the original battery operated thermostat was. Quite simple really.

There can be communication problems if the receiver is too far away or shielded by a large metallic object that restricts their locations.
 
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There are two types of Hive receiver.

The Dual Channel version for one heating zone and hot water.
View attachment 184038


The Single Channel version for the second heating zone.
View attachment 184039

You should have one of each type. It can make the wiring slightly more difficult depending upon how the system was originally installed. If originally the hot water separate time control (ie programmer) from the heating control, then it will need rewiring to bring it into the dual channel Hive with one of the heating zones.

What you suggest doesn't sound unreasonable to me, and is sounds like they have rerouted the hot water control to the downstairs Hive alrerady. I think the problem upstairs will be that there wasn't a 240V supply to the original thermostat which was battery operated. A simple solution would to have replaced the original upstairs thermostat receiver with the Hive Single Channel receiver and put the Hive thermostat where the original battery operated thermostat was. Quite simple really.

There can be communication problems if the receiver is too far away or shielded by a large metallic object that restricts their locations.

Thank you. That is what we had bought; Dual channel receiver for downstairs to control the hot water and heating with a wireless thermostat and we had an additional wireless thermostat with single channel receiver to control radiators upstairs. Hot water and downstairs heating is working fine; just need the receiver re-located.

Engineer took away the additional thermostat and single channel receiver with him and instead installed a hard-wired thermostat with 'built-in receiver' that utilises the old programmer wiring (it's still battery powered). As you say, seems like the lazy options rather than having to disconnect the current wires and re-do them at the boiler / hot water tank.

The part about no 240v power supply upstairs is correct. But wouldn't it be possible to wire the receiver into the hot water wiring centre or completely re-do it and wire it into the boiler in the garage?
 
There are two types of Hive receiver.

The Dual Channel version for one heating zone and hot water.
View attachment 184038


The Single Channel version for the second heating zone.
View attachment 184039

What you suggest doesn't sound unreasonable to me, and is sounds like they have rerouted the hot water control to the downstairs Hive alrerady. I think the problem upstairs will be that there wasn't a 240V supply to the original thermostat which was battery operated. A simple solution would to have replaced the original upstairs thermostat receiver with the Hive Single Channel receiver and put the Hive thermostat where the original battery operated thermostat was. Quite simple really.

Apologies for the double-quote, but it won't let me re-edit my previous post :(

The upstairs previous room thermostat was a programmable one, so I don't think there was ever an additional receiver. But I was under the impression that a hive receiver could potentially be wired into the wiring centre on the hot water tank or boiler to provide power and access to the relevant wires?
 
Ah OK, when you said battery operated I had assumed it was wireless (although I'm not sure why, when you did say it had two wires connected to it :confused:). Anyway the problem is still no 240V supply for them to mount the receiver in place of the original room stat. Personally I hate have having the receivers on view in the room anyway but that's probably OCD.

So we are back to my original...
the receivers are normally located at the wiring centre (usually adjacent to the motorised valves) and the Hive thermostats located where the original thermostats were and communicating with the receivers wirelessly.

I don't see a problem with moving the receiver downstairs into the garage, but I normally like to have them together next to the wiring centre. (OCD again!)

Capture.JPG
 
Ah OK, when you said battery operated I had assumed it was wireless (although I'm not sure why, when you did say it had two wires connected to it :confused:). Anyway the problem is still no 240V supply for them to mount the receiver in place of the original room stat. Personally I hate have having the receivers on view in the room anyway but that's probably OCD.

So we are back to my original...


I don't see a problem with moving the receiver downstairs into the garage, but I normally like to have them together next to the wiring centre. (OCD again!)

View attachment 184043

Sorry mate you must be pulling your hair out with me :whistle:

That's what the engineer said about the upstairs thermostat - no mains power but I'm assuming wiring to control the valve at the hot water tank?

Does the wiring center at the hot water tank have the ability to provide power for the new hive receiver?

If it's moved to the boiler then would it be difficult to connect the receiver to the wires to control the valve?

Cheers again mate.
 
No worries, better to ask and be sure.
Does the wiring center at the hot water tank have the ability to provide power for the new hive receiver?
It should do, and probably will, but it depends upon the layout of the various components in your home and the personal preferences of the original installer. There are many ways of wiring these systems and I don't find many that are exactly the same as another. [Except sometimes in the case of identical new builds] so I can't say for certain, but would expect it to be so.

If it's moved to the boiler then would it be difficult to connect the receiver to the wires to control the valve?
Maybe not, provided that the boiler is located adjacent to the motorised valves or wiring centre, but yes it would be difficult if the boiler is further away. As I said before, your room thermostats will not be wired to the boiler, so there are no suitable existing wires for the Nest receivers to control already at the boiler. It could be done, but you would need to run new cables from the wiring centre / motorised valves to the boiler just for the receivers.

Remember, the Nest receivers will be operating the motorised valves not the boiler. [The motorised valves actually control the boiler and not the thermostats]
 
No worries, better to ask and be sure.

It should do, and probably will, but it depends upon the layout of the various components in your home and the personal preferences of the original installer. There are many ways of wiring these systems and I don't find many that are exactly the same as another. [Except sometimes in the case of identical new builds] so I can't say for certain, but would expect it to be so.


Maybe not, provided that the boiler is located adjacent to the motorised valves or wiring centre, but yes it would be difficult if the boiler is further away. As I said before, your room thermostats will not be wired to the boiler, so there are no suitable existing wires for the Nest receivers to control already at the boiler. It could be done, but you would need to run new cables from the wiring centre / motorised valves to the boiler just for the receivers.

Remember, the Nest receivers will be operating the motorised valves not the boiler. [The motorised valves actually control the boiler and not the thermostats]

Thanks. House is only 1.5 years old so hopefully everything is tidy-ish in there. Boiler is quite a bit away from the water tank, so looks like I'll be asking them to install it at the wiring centre on the water tank!
 
Ive done a few multizone installs on newer builds where the original stats were wired. Its a fair bit more work to fit the receivers into the airing cupboard but not impossible as the wiring centre should be in there. Logistically, putting the receivers near the boiler would be a mare.
 
In essence you can have what ever you want, but at a cost, and this is the problem BG do jobs at a fixed price in their standard method. The Hive system can work either way around the motorised valves can tell the wall thermostat when to switch boiler on, or the wall thermostat can tell motorised valves to open and they tell the boiler when to fire. They are completely different methods, and to swap will cost.

So the standard motorised valve has micro switches inside it and is either on or off, the thermostatic radiator valve (TRV) can be made into a motorised valve by adding the Hive head to it, which uses a heat on demand system to tell the wall thermostat when to turn on boiler, and the converted TRV has the advantage of slowly opening and closing so each room is gradually controlled so reducing the hysteresis, and you can have a heat on each radiator so each room is independent.

The Hive TRV head was only released last year, it does not seem to get very good reviews, but all I can say it what the advert says it can do, I also made mistakes with the central heating, I installed Nest and Energenie TRV heads and I have found the claimed linking in practice did not work, the heads do turn each TRV into a motorised valve and they do work well at controlling the rooms, but the linking so the auto follow Nest has not worked, so the cheap eQ-3 in real terms for me do just as good of a job.

And the cost is the problem, screwfix around £54 each, else where you can find cheaper seen on ebay for £40, eQ-3 screwfix £22, else where seen them for £10 and I got bluetooth versions for £15. But this house 13 TRV's so looking at £600 for the heads if all Hive, and £130 if all eQ-3 as said I have Nest not Hive so I have 4 x Energenie and 5 x eQ-3 bluetooth, and not perfect but good enough, so you have to decide how much your willing to pay?

It does depend on the house, in last 10 years I have lived in three houses with central heating, my old house was open plan, and down stairs was controlled by a single thermostat, and upstairs the TRV's stopped bedrooms over heating, nothing complex, it did not need it, the Myson fan assisted radiator would heat down stairs fast, and there was also a 4.5 kW gas fire, so no need to pre-heat house, I could get it up to temp in 15 minutes.

Mothers house has bay windows, and these caused a problem, morning sun plus radiator could easy get living room to 32°C, adjusting the standard TRV improved it down to 28°C and with the electronic programmable TRV heads which work faster got it down to around 23°C when set temperature was 20°C when the sun came out. Without morning sun it was spot on. We also had the energenie TRV's in the bedrooms so 4 in all and they worked well in other rooms keeping them spot on, with gas boiler modulating and thermostat and TRV in hall.

We brought the TRV heads with us to this house, again large area of glass in living room in this case patio doors, and again morning sun can be a problem, the TRV heads do not work as well as have an oil boiler which does not modulate, however they still do work well keeping rooms to the temperature set on the schedule.

However the point is life style and house design mean what works well in one house or for one family may not work for another, this house takes longer to heat up, and the geofencing and occupancy detection is really handy warming up the house before we get home, which as said was not required with the old house.

So you have to decide what your willing to pay for. I find we tend to leave doors open, so although the dinning room is not heated until 4 pm, it gets heat from the hall, and heat raises so if we leave bedroom doors open even with schedule set not to heat in the day, they will still get warm, so although theory is rooms only heated when required, in practice the whole house is still heated, may be not as much, but no room is ever what one would say is cold, maybe 14°C but that is not really cold, again switch a bank of radiators on/off in theory with modulating boilers is not as good as gradually controlling individual rooms, but as to if there are savings worth worrying about allowing the boiler to modulate as it is designed to do, rather than switching on/off, I really don't know.

The theory is the modulating boiler turns slowly down as the TRV's close so when it finally stops it is already cool so less heat lost out of flue, not convinced it makes that much difference. And it does not matter for me as oil fired so does not modulate.

So Drayton Wiser, EvoHome, and Tado are really good systems controlling each room independently using where the boiler allows opentherm gradual control, Nest also has opentherm but does not have such a good way to integrate with the TRV heads, Hive does not have opentherm but does have TRV heads which are claimed to work with it. No one is likely to have lived in a house paying bill with all 5 systems, so no one can really say which is best, or how much one costs compared with another, however unless the TRV heads control the rooms non will work A1, but as to if it is worth the cost to buy all those expensive TRV heads, I don't know, I as said use eQ-3 there is also the Terrier i30 which is nearly the same.
 

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