How do the rules regarding expiry apply with a two part PP?

[moonshine]

Hello All

I wonder if somebody could advise me regarding our planning permission?

We live in a conservation area and received planning permission for a rear conservatory and side extension in December 2008. Meaning this permission will run out in next month in December 2011.

This was one single application and pp grant for this (ie the conservatory and extension was on the same form, drawings etc).

I am aware that if planning permission has been granted, work just needs to be started before the expiry date and then can be continued at a later date if necessary.

But how does it work in our case where there is a two parts on the same pp?

(1) Conservatory: Builders have already been booked to start this in a couple of weeks. Building regs not required.
(2) Side extension: We are hoping to do this next year. Building regs will be required, but we have not applied for this yet, and were hoping to do this at the same time or just before building it.

So my question is, if we start the conservatory (and possibly finish) before the PP has run out, will we be able to do the side extension next year?

Many Thanks for any advice.

 

[^woody^]

If this was one single permission, then starting work enacts the permission for everything

 

[moonshine]

Thanks very much for your reply Woody, so you would think that I could submit a building regs application and then build the side extension a year after the planning permission expired?

And do you know if there is a link to an official document stating this is that is the case? I've been looking on the web but haven't been able to find anything…

The main reason why we want to make 100% sure and also never got round to doing any building before is that we have an extremely awkward elderly single male neighbour (who has a huge house and plot, having lived in it alone since the second world war). He started getting his solicitor to send us 5 or 6 threatening letters, after we had received planning permission saying he will not allow us to build our side extension as he is worried that we will damage, what he calls HIS fence (which is actually very rotten).

Actually, funnily enough, the neighbour on the other side of our small plot (elderly single female) also claims that the other boundary fence is HERS, as we discovered after her solicitor sent the previous owners of our house, threatening letters saying that they were damaging HER fence. That correspondence was passed on to us when we bought our house.
So basically one neighbour claims he owns the left and rear fence of our plot, and the other neighbour claims they own the fence on the right (which will be where the conservatory will be).

So we're going to be in for fun and games no matter what, and are extremely cautious of what these neighbours will try. If we did not have such awkward neighbours, we would have built the conservatory and extension years ago.

Does anyone know if there is any official document or weblink that more or less says or suggests: I could build and submit a building regs application and then build the side extension after the planning permission expired, as long as I had started the conservatory?

Because both these neighbours are very quick to get on to their solicitors…

Sorry for the long post, but we are in a very 'awkward' position.

 

[moonshine]

Ps I know I could simply pick up the phone and ask the council planners. The reason why I haven't done that because were so terrified of our neighbours and don't want to highlight the fact to the council that we have very awkward neighbours, and the council then look into this again and change their minds about the planning permission for some reason..

 

[^woody^]

Town and Country Planning Act 1990 section 56

 

[moonshine]

Thanks again for your reply, Woody.

I had already read
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1990/8/section/56 and all the other clauses / sections that section 56 refers to, before I signed up and posted on this forum. But unless I misread something (probably ). it doesn't clarify, what would happen in the case, like ours, where there are effectively two completely separate mini projects on the same application / granted planning permission?

I also tried to look at other areas of the act to see if there are references that clarify, but couldn't find anything. Then I'm guessing you are familiar with that act in it's entirety?

As said before, both our neighbours, who basically surround our plot, are exceptionally quick to instruct solicitors (one of them against us, the other against our previous neighbours), for reasons that any normal person would think utterly inappropriate and ridiculous. Anyway, it has made us extra cautious...

I've found it quite difficult to get clarity, with research on the web. I recently saw the below, which although the example they use, is not exactly the same as our situation, certain aspects of that case seems to be the most similar example that I have been able to find. And in that case it seems the pp became no longer valid...

http://www.wrighthassall.co.uk/resources/articles/article_planningpermission.aspx

 

[hotrod]

I do hope you are not questioning the validity of information given to you Woody. He is our esteemed and eminent leader.

How very, very, rude!

 

[moonshine]

No, I was not try to rudely question anyone, and greatly appreciate any advice or comments from those with superior knowledge in planning law than myself. I was merely, and humbly, trying to find out if there was any clear black and white statement, that may put our minds at rest. 

Believe me, if you had neighbours (from hell), as we discovered, after we moved here, whose only communication with anyone in the whole village is via their solicitors, sending threatening letters, I am sure you would be a little bit cautious / anxious?

If only we knew that before we moved here...

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Maybe the OP shouldn't have left it till the last possible moment!

 

[moonshine]

Freddy, we left it to the last possible moment, because: (1) finance partly due to the fact that we have had to spend every last penny on fertility treatment over last few years, and we HAD to prioritise.. and (2) all the threatening solicitors letters of future action (for no reason other than greed) from our neighbour, whose plot is more than 10 times the size of ours, that we have received.

After 8 IVF rounds, 7 of which ended in miscarriage, the other did not fertilise, luckily we are now expecting a child via my wife's sister, who is carrying our child as a surrogate mother, birth within the next 2 weeks.

That is the reason why we can not start the extension part of the permission, to our small house, due to dust, disruption to a new born and lungs.

That is also the reason why we desperately will need the extra space, in the near future.

 

[freddiemercurystwin]

Oh wait, let me get my violin out!

 

[moonshine]

I would have thought that there may be many reasons why people have to delay building work, that are outside their own control. The reasons are not just because they are stupid.

I was just trying to find out if there was any official statement or document, that clarifies the answer to my question, given that knowing the neighbours we have, they will try and exploit any uncertainty. Sorry for asking…

 

[^woody^]

The permission covers everything for which the permission was granted, so it does not matter how many things were included on a single application, as long as the work was significantly started, then the permission is deemed enacted.

Having said that, there are instances where enactment of the permission may not be deemed to have occurred if there are conditions to be met before commencement - ie the development will not have been lawfully commenced if the permission states that certain things need to be done before commencement and they are not done. But this is a technical issue and relates to specific situations

 

[moonshine]

Many thanks again for your advice Woody. I'm guessing that this is something that you just 'know' through experience, which I understand is extensive (my knowledge is extremely limited in this field), as opposed something that is clearly stated in the act? Unless in my inexperience and unfamiliarity with the act, it is clearly stated and I have simply missed it while trying to read through parts of it.

In our case, no, there are no conditions to be met before commencement, so hopefully all will be ok. Only building regs, for the side extension. Do you think we should get / apply for building regs for the side extension part of it before the original permission runs out next month, which we'll build next year? Or would you say it's not relevant at this stage in the game?

Your knowledge and experience is greatly appreciated.

Though perhaps the other two commentators on this thread, might like to consider enrolling in a crash course in netiquette?

 

[^woody^]

Though perhaps the other two commentators on this thread, might like to consider enrolling in a crash course in netiquette?

They are beyond help

No need to apply for b/regs, as its it irrelevant to the planning permission, and if you are thinking that this somehow will help with proof of starting before the planning deadline, it wont ... as you are not actually starting the work or inspections

An invoice or suchlike from the builders which says that they are starting and finishing the conservatory on certain dates will do