ideal vogue or intergas combi?

[cypher007]

probably horses for courses, but I thought id ask which is the better boiler? or indeed if there is a better option?

points to add:

its going in an existing system that's nearly 20 years old.

the mains water has about 250-300 ppm scale.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Intergas, no questions.

Hard water requires treatment regardless.

 

[cypher007]

had a look at the vogues manual and it look a nightmare. plus it has a plate to plate.

I think the plumber suggesting the vogue is suggesting it because, apparently, ideal do the repairs within the first 10 years not him.

 

[SilentDancer]

I'd go for neither of the two.

The Ideal Vogue has a stainless steel Giannoni heat exchanger which is fragile if system pressure drops. The better bet is the Ideal Logic which has Ideal's own robust cast aluminium heat cell.

I can not understand why people keep recommending Intergas boilers, is it just to be different? Major manufacturers have moved away from one piece heat exchangers on combi boilers for two reasons.

The first reason is scale. If a plate heat exchangers scales up then you can replace it. If a one piece heat exchanger scales up like the Intgergas one then your boiler will need replacing.

Secondly, when the heating is off in the Summer one piece heat exchangers take longer to warm up so the response to turning on a tap is slower.

 

[sooey]

When you turn on a tap with a plate the main heat ex has got to warm up before it starts to warm up the plate. So how can the response time be slower with a bithermic?
As to the scale, wouldn't know about, we have proper water up here in luvverly liverpool, no scale.

 

[Dan Robinson]

I'd go for neither of the two.

The Ideal Vogue has a stainless steel Giannoni heat exchanger which is fragile if system pressure drops. The better bet is the Ideal Logic which has Ideal's own robust cast aluminium heat cell.

I can not understand why people keep recommending Intergas boilers, is it just to be different? Major manufacturers have moved away from one piece heat exchangers on combi boilers for two reasons.

The first reason is scale. If a plate heat exchangers scales up then you can replace it. If a one piece heat exchanger scales up like the Intgergas one then your boiler will need replacing.

Secondly, when the heating is off in the Summer one piece heat exchangers take longer to warm up so the response to turning on a tap is slower.

Difficult to get so much twaddle in one post. Congratulations

 

[SilentDancer]

When you turn on a tap with a plate the main heat ex has got to warm up before it starts to warm up the plate. So how can the response time be slower with a bithermic?

Its all down to the thermal mass. A plate heat exchanger is a very efficient and effective way of transfering heat from system water to domestic water.

With a one piece heat exchanger you have a larger mass to heat up than with a boiler with a separate plate heat exchanger. Thus response times are slower.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Guess you haven't read the manuals then.

Two words.

Intelligent Pre-heat.


Scale is not a problem if the boiler is properly commissioned.

 

[sooey]

With a one piece heat exchanger you have a larger mass to heat up than with a boiler with a separate plate heat exchanger. Thus response times are slower.

Not that much larger, and you don't have a pump to start up and prove before ignition. No pump needed on h/w only with a one piece.

 

[Dan Robinson]

A giannoni /clone will still take 30 seconds or so from a cold start.

 

[SilentDancer]

Guess you haven't read the manuals then.

Two words.

Intelligent Pre-heat.


Scale is not a problem if the boiler is properly commissioned.

So there is an issue with responsiveness to hot water demands so much so that an Intergas boiler has a special pre-heat programme. Note that when the boiler is in this mode the hot water efficiency will be worse.

However, the hot water efficiency is not great compared to the Ideal Vogue. The SAP hot water efficiency for an Intergas is between 72.1% and 74.4%. For the Ideal Vogue it is between 76.4% and 76.7%. The difference in the efficiency will be down to the fact that the Intergas has a one piece heat exchanger.

True scale should not be an issue for any boiler when it has been properly installed and maintained. However, one piece heat exchangers are inherently more likely to scale up and when they do you've lost the heat exchanger. Note the Intergas warranty terms state that if scale is found then the warranty is void.

 

[Dan Robinson]

So you think a 3% variance in SAP is meaningful?

The one piece HEX is nothing like Ferroli, Wooshitter Botch, Ideal and Potterton's efforts.

I think you will find any manufacturer will reserve the right to void the warranty is scale is found.


Like I said, a giannoni type hex, from a cold start will give similar reaction times.


Now, try Googling something sensible to use as an argument.

 

[Gasguru]

I'd go for neither of the two.

The Ideal Vogue has a stainless steel Giannoni heat exchanger which is fragile if system pressure drops. The better bet is the Ideal Logic which has Ideal's own robust cast aluminium heat cell.

I can not understand why people keep recommending Intergas boilers, is it just to be different? Major manufacturers have moved away from one piece heat exchangers on combi boilers for two reasons.

The first reason is scale. If a plate heat exchangers scales up then you can replace it. If a one piece heat exchanger scales up like the Intgergas one then your boiler will need replacing.

Secondly, when the heating is off in the Summer one piece heat exchangers take longer to warm up so the response to turning on a tap is slower.

Load of old nonsense...

Depends where in the country you live as to whether scale is a problem....here in London it isn't. I've got many bithermals (Ferolis, Puma/Lynx etc) some 20 years old now operating just as good as new.

Even if scale was a problem it's relatively simple to descale them with a powerflusher hooked up to the hot and cold.

My only real issue with the Intergas is parts availabilty.

 

[Dan Robinson]

Which isn't really am issue either.

 

[Dan Robinson]

With a one piece heat exchanger you have a larger mass to heat up than with a boiler with a separate plate heat exchanger. Thus response times are slower.

Not that much larger, and you don't have a pump to start up and prove before ignition. No pump needed on h/w only with a one piece.

It will be much quicker than a Plate HEX when the boiler is already fired for heating






Oh dear