Installing free standing bath tap

[Madrab]

Can you not design access in to the installation? That's what I do. Top floor flat, double ended slipper bath. 600mm x 600mm Slate tiles, one left beside tap where it doesn't get any real foot traffic. Laid using 4 corner and a certre spot of silicone and then sealed with the same dark grey colour as the grout. Floorboards underneath cut to the same size and a hatch created and screwed down. Allows access to the flexi's valves and the waste hookup. Servicing's now a doddle.

It's like fitters that tile in the bath panel too, end tile left silicone'd in and removable so access is easy if needed without smashing out everything. Alway keep a few tiles spare too.

TBH though I alway recommend not to tile a bathroom floor, more especially in flats unless it is understood there will be major upheaval to do any repairs.

 

[Milleniumaire]

Can you not design access in to the installation? That's what I do. Top floor flat, double ended slipper bath. 600mm x 600mm Slate tiles, one left beside tap where it doesn't get any real foot traffic. Laid using 4 corner and a certre spot of silicone and then sealed with the same dark grey colour as the grout. Floorboards underneath cut to the same size and a hatch created and screwed down. Allows access to the flexi's valves and the waste hookup. Servicing's now a doddle.

It's like fitters that tile in the bath panel too, end tile left silicone'd in and removable so access is easy if needed without smashing out everything. Alway keep a few tiles spare too.

TBH though I alway recommend not to tile a bathroom floor, more especially in flats unless it is understood there will be major upheaval to do any repairs.

Unfortunately, it would be difficult to access under the floor boards once the bathroom has been completed. I am installing Omnie underfloor heating, which involves gluing and screwing 22mm routed boards with 6mm ply over the top, then a number of layers are put down to prepare for tiling, including an anti fracture mat. The boards will have UFH pipe pushed into them, so it won't possible to access the floor void through the floor.

I've ordered some speedfit pushfit tap tails today, which should arrive by the end of the week and I'll see what I can do with those and some plastic pipe.

 

[Milleniumaire]

The JG speedfit flx28 15mm pushfit to M10 tails have arrived and I've just done a water test, by connecting them upto a couple of pipes and there were no leaks.

However, screwing the tails onto the tap was a little tricky as there's no way I can get any type of spanner into the body of the floorstanding tap, so can't tighten up the M10 connections. They are only as tight as I'm able to "twist" the flexible hose and while tightening one of them up, I noticed it started turning and wouldn't stop. It would appear where the hose connects to the M10 end, at the small nut, this is now swivelling! This means I'm unable to unscrew this particular tail from the tap. Although the water test didn't show any leaks, it still worries me that a) maybe the tails need to be tighter than hand tight and b) if one of the tails has "broken" is it likely to start leaking in the future?

I had a quick Google, but can't see any type of tool, like a smaller version of a basin wrench, that would fit up the inside of the tap and allow the nut on the end of the M10 tail to be tightened!

 

[Madrab]

The tails have unions on the M10 threaded ends where the rubber and braided hose is crimped onto the end. Certain types of these ends can and do move.
As long as the o-ring(s) on the end of the threaded tail are fully inside the recessed threaded tapping in the tap body, then hand tight should be tight enough.
A lot of these tails are designed as tool-less fittings as overtightening the O-Ring can damage it. I always smear the lightest of silicone grease on the o-ring prior to fitting.

 

[Milleniumaire]

The tails that came with the tap had two o-rings and they were "smaller" than the o-ring on the speedfit tails. I assume because there are two they went "inside" the threaded female connection. I'm not convinced the o-ring on the speedfit tails would fit inside as it seems too big, but I can't be sure as I can't see how they are screwed due to the fitting being about 20cm inside the body of the tap!

I was wondering if I could take the tap apart and remove the copper tails that are connected to the tap spout so that I can understand how these new speedfit tails are fitting and also to remove the one that is spinning.

 

[Madrab]

You might not able to get to the bottom of the tap where the tapping for the tails are unless loosening the grub screw under the cover at the back of the tap spout might allow the casing to be slid down and removed.

 

[Lower]

Presumably you won't have under floor heating pipes under the bath. Could you not create an access hole under the bath that allows you to fit the underfloor heating, tile past the area where the tap is going to go, fit the tap, fill in the access hole and then continue on with the tiling. You might need longer flexi's to get from the tap to your connection point under the bath.

 

[Milleniumaire]

Yes, there are quite a few grub screws around the tap, but one in particular near the head of the spout, which I had assumed would allow the head and the internals to be pulled out.

Unfortunately, the grub screw won't unscrew all the way out due to the poor manufacturing of the casing of the tap, which is partially covering the screw and I'm not seeing any obvious way of being able to adjust the casing.

I will reach out to the supplier and possibly the manufacturer if I can and ask some questions.

The instructions that came with the tap are about the worst I have ever seen. In terms of quantity, it was a single sheet with a drawing of the tap identifying the hot and cold tail connections. It also showed a picture of the mounting bracket, which looks nothing like the one supplied!

Other taps I've looked at online have instructions that provide full, detailed part lists with instructions on how to dissemble and re-assemble the tap. If only!

 

[Madrab]

Unfortunately, those points seem to identify the tap as a copied asian design with poor manufacturing tolerances, rubbish quality materials, lousy quality control and translated/photocopied instructions from some other similar product.

So much of that available now, it epitimises our market these days and why china is now such a large manufacturing powerhouse. Cheap copied nasty rubbish churned out in volume that we in the west are quite happy to hoover up and then replace in a couple of years. The current crisis just highlights that lopsided position that really needs to be redressed IMO.

Please don't think I'm having a go here, it's just we pro's see this stuff all the time these days. Fitted a tap for someone today just like that, they couldn't even get one of the tail tappings straight so the copper tails ended up misaligned with the C washer below and I had to bend the tail and then force the washer up using the nut to get it to fit properly.

If you can't get the grub screw out then you want to drill the hole a bit larger if you can.

 

[Milleniumaire]

Presumably you won't have under floor heating pipes under the bath. Could you not create an access hole under the bath that allows you to fit the underfloor heating, tile past the area where the tap is going to go, fit the tap, fill in the access hole and then continue on with the tiling. You might need longer flexi's to get from the tap to your connection point under the bath.

You're right, there won't be UFH pipes under the bath and I did consider this option in my original post:

...
Another possibility might be to buy some "really long tails" and run these under the floor to the pipes which could be positioned underneath the freestanding bath as this has a "void" that would hide the connections.
...

The longest flexis I could find were 900mm and this wouldn't have been long enough to reach from the taps to the nearest point under the bath. This is because the bath is an egg shape and the taps will be at the narrow end meaning the base of the bath is further from the taps. I did suggest to the missus about putting the taps at the other end of the bath, which would be closer to the bath base but she wouldn't entertain it!

I feel as though my current solution will work, I'm just concerned about the "stuck" tail, although I probably don't need to be as my water test indicated it was tight enough not to leak and once the taps are installed they'll probably be there for another 20 years!

 

[Milleniumaire]

Unfortunately, those points seem to identify the tap as a copied asian design with poor manufacturing tolerances, rubbish quality materials, lousy quality control and translated/photocopied instructions from some other similar product.

So much of that available now, it epitimises our market these days and why china is now such a large manufacturing powerhouse. Cheap copied nasty rubbish churned out in volume that we in the west are quite happy to hoover up and then replace in a couple of years. The current crisis just highlights that lopsided position that really needs to be redressed IMO.

Please don't think I'm having a go here, it's just we pro's see this stuff all the time these days. Fitted a tap for someone today just like that, they couldn't even get one of the tail tappings straight so the copper tails ended up misaligned with the C washer below and I had to bend the tail and then force the washer up using the nut to get it to fit properly.

If you can't get the grub screw out then you want to drill the hole a bit larger if you can.

I agree, it is probably a cheap Chinese copy. I wanted to spend more money on some decent taps that had a good, well designed fitting, where it was possible to fit the bracket as part of the first fix, then "plug" in the taps after tiling, but the missus didn't want to spend £600+ on floor standing taps. The ones I liked were more like £1000

After a little more playing last night, I realised the top grub screw didn't need to come all the way out and by loosening it, the tap head/spout could be pulled off. Unfortunately, that didn't help me to remove the internals of the tap, including the copper tails. I've now emailed the supplier and the manufacturer to ask if it is possible and if so to provide me with instructions. Can't imagine I'm going to get any joy. The supplier may just ask me to send them back for a replacement, but that's a little difficult given that the issue is with the JG speedfit tap tails that I purchased separately!

In an ideal world all floorstanding taps would be supplied with a "standard" fixing bracket, which could be plumbed in independently of which tap was fitted to it. This would allow different taps to be purchased and plugged in without too much trouble, although it would probably impact on the amount of plumbing work required

 

[Milleniumaire]

Here's the tap we purchased. Currently listed at £372.95 with a retail of £932.95 (balderdash!!!!). We paid £255 for it around a month ago! Current prices vary from £260 to £600!

We chose this particular tap because it was similar to my favourite from the Hansgrohe Metris range, which we have purchased for our basin tap.

It's amazing how much money floor standing taps can cost!

 

[Milleniumaire]

After lots of playing around with the tap, I managed to take it apart and remove the internal copper tails, allowing me to use a spanner to unscrew the speedfit tail.

I had a play around with the tails that came with the tap and with the replacement speedfit tails. The tails that came with the tap have two o-rings and screw much more into the taps copper tails. This feels like a really good, secure fitting, except that the other end is a 3/4 female nut with a washer, the type that screws onto a bath tap.

On the other hand, the replacement speedfit tails have one o-ring and it takes half the number of turns before it is tight, not to mention one of them is "broken"!

Given that the supplied tails seem to have a much bettern M10 screw fitting I thought I would look around for something that would allow me to connect the 3/4 female nut directly to some 15mm plastic pipe using pushfit, but there doesn't appear to be any such thing!

I can see 1/2" BSP male to 15mm pushfit and 3/4" BSP male to 22mm pushfit and also 1/2" male to 15mm spigot or 3/4" male to 22mm spigot, but none of these would be any good and I don't want to start adding reducing adapters. Essentially, I want to be able to pushfit the tails directly onto some plastic 15mm pipe. I guess I'll have to stick with the speedfit tails and hope the M10 fitting gives a long lasting water tight connection.

 

[Madrab]

It's not 'broken', they're meant to turn like that, it's the design, it's so when you're tightening it all up at the supply side the flexi doesn't twist/kink. Once they're in and tight enough for it to spin then it should be in tight enough to seal.

Just wet the o-ring as it's going in, a little spit will do the job if you don't have silicone grease.

 

[Milleniumaire]

It's not 'broken', they're meant to turn like that, it's the design, it's so when you're tightening it all up at the supply side the flexi doesn't twist/kink. Once they're in and tight enough for it to spin then it should be in tight enough to seal.

Just wet the o-ring as it's going in, a little spit will do the job if you don't have silicone grease.

I contacted JG speedfit directly about the "spinning" and they confirmed it definitely should NOT do that and there was an issue with the flexible hose. Obviously JG speedfit is only one manufacturer, so can't say if others are the same, but the tails that came with the tap certainly don't spin at the threaded end either, although they do spin at the other end, the end that needs to be connected to the pipes via a 3/4 female nut.

I guess some flexible hoses will need to be able to spin at one end or the other i.e. those with a nut or compression fitting. The JG speedfit tails do not spin at either end I guess this is because they are pushed onto a 15mm pipe, not twisted.