Intsalling heavy tiles in victorian bathroom

[3DGuy]

Ok I will look at these systems and cost. It might be my only real option...

In regards to bathroom flooring I meant to say 18mm wsb ply. I didn't mean chipboard, got chipboard on my mind as I've just used 22 mm chipboard to board my loft.

Thanks again for all your help.

No problem at all

Apparently the system is very low cost in relation to a Timber stud wall. Hence why its being used on new builds to get costs down.

keep us update don progress

 

[liam546]

Thanks. I will let you know how I get on

Ive googled some system which appear to require brackets on the studs in the brick wall , others don't appear to need that.

My main questions would be whether the middle will flex if it's not secured and my other question would be what are minimum widths and load capacity for tiling. I'll call a few manufacturers tomorrow to try and gain some more knowledge on these

 

[3DGuy]

Thanks. I will let you know how I get on

Ive googled some system which appear to require brackets on the studs in the brick wall , others don't appear to need that.

My main questions would be whether the middle will flex if it's not secured and my other question would be what are minimum widths and load capacity for tiling. I'll call a few manufacturers tomorrow to try and gain some more knowledge on these

For sure. Look for the ones that don't. They will be ones that are used in new houses for the internal walls. Not sure how it would flex if you have fitted the top and bottom frames, then you have C/U shaped vertical braces at regular intervals. It shouldn't flex at all. I believe you use a different type of screw and fix the plasterboard direct to the metal.

Either way it looks stronger than the brick work there currently that doesn't sound happy about being drilled or anything done to it.

The main one of these I think I sent a link seem to state its a metal stud wall system. Just like standard 4x2 frames are made in the traditional sense with noggins.

 

[liam546]

I have spoken to CCF (national supplier of metal partitioning) and British Gypsum who offer their gypliner IWL solution.

Basically what I've been told is a 50mm track is the thinnest frame they offer which is completely independent of the brick wall and does not require additional brackets on the studs which fix to the wall.

There are smaller, say 25mm metal liners that they offer but these require the brackets on the stud. Therefore I must go for a 50mm frame, once plasterboard is added and tiles I may lose around 75mm all around the room which I'm not keen on but what choice do I have?

Could you just give me your reasons again as to why dot and dabbing onto a lime mortar wall won't work. I guess if I'm using heavy tiles the lot could fall on me like you said, but when I speak to a few friends who are builders they just say clean all the brick, wash wall, pva it and your be fine. M

 

[3DGuy]

I have spoken to CCF (national supplier of metal partitioning) and British Gypsum who offer their gypliner IWL solution.

Basically what I've been told is a 50mm track is the thinnest frame they offer which is completely independent of the brick wall and does not require additional brackets on the studs which fix to the wall.

There are smaller, say 25mm metal liners that they offer but these require the brackets on the stud. Therefore I must go for a 50mm frame, once plasterboard is added and tiles I may lose around 75mm all around the room which I'm not keen on but what choice do I have?

Could you just give me your reasons again as to why dot and dabbing onto a lime mortar wall won't work. I guess if I'm using heavy tiles the lot could fall on me like you said, but when I speak to a few friends who are builders they just say clean all the brick, wash wall, pva it and your be fine. M

I think it was another chap that said no to the dot and dab weight reasons/possible failure. My thoughts are is I thought plaster can at times react with cement to form a salting (hence why you prime/seal plaster walls when using cement adhesive.....

So if you dot and dab I wouldn't like the possibility of the dabs coming loose - I'd never want to chance that with the weight you are talking. I re-lined our room due to tile weight also and would never ever consider dot and dab when I did it, it wasn't on the cards. I would have re-designed things instead if I had to. Also I prefer to fix things properly to be honest. I've never liked the idea of the dot and dab route and also people have issues with the dabs holding a lot more moisture etc also not great in bathrooms.

What fittings are you putting in? The original room photos it looks very spacious and its a massive room for a bathroom already. I assume 1x sink, bath, shower cubical, toilet as standard? Any pics of supplies/lists etc layouts.

Personally if I was in your position I would go for the 50mm and plasterboard on that and take the hit on the combined depth. Alternatively if you really don't want to loose the space or if I didn't want to I'd be looking at another design. Your brickwork doesn't sound like its helping the situation really which is the core limiting option.

I would look at things in a different light. I would look at things from a positive point, instead of loosing that space what you gains is insulation/efficiency. So don't look at it as a minus point on loosing space. Think of it that you are adding insulation there which will keep the room stable/warm and such.

Those positives far out weigh loosing the space I think and with the room size and not being sure on the designs I'd guess you do have space cushion. But again it depends what you have in mind for the design/layout, and if you have already ordered fittings and fixtures etc.

I'm trying to think of any other options. Thoughts?

PS after most of our house has been plastered, we did actuall have a single wall fail. Plaster came right off in sheets the size of a dining table... Add tiles on that and adhesive and that's a whole lot of injury that could be caused. I forgot to add safety/piece of mind knowing that it couldn't just fall off is another positive in my eyes

 

[liam546]

Thanks again for the time and advice your putting in for me to come to a solution I'm happy with.

Your right my bathroom is fortunately quite large. I have already ordered fixtures such as bath which is standard length but free standing so will not be right up against the wall but under the window perhaps 30mm or so away from the wall.

I also have a 1200 x 800 shower tray and screen going in the corner where the old quadrant shower was. We have also got standard toilet and a sink which I think was 600 wide.

When we worked out all the fittings in terms of space it seemed ok but I'm worried with 60 -70mm additional space being taken up on each wall might looked cramped. I'd be losing 120 -140mm off the total width of the room.

I do think the 50mm metal frame option is the best as I can insulate well too but I think my next step needs to be clear the bathroom. Mark out the proposed new floor space and then physically put the fittings in place to see the new layout and whether itl work.

 

[liam546]

Just a thought.....

If the 50 mm frame was too much do you think I could use the 25mm frame but where I need to fix the centers to the wall, could I repoint the lime mortar in cement only where I need to make the fixing and then make the fixing into the repointed mortar joint? .... Do you think this could work ?

 

[liam546]

Or replace the brick at the point I need to fix altogether with a solid engineering brick for example. As my joints are lime mortar I can chisel out the joint and remove the brick quite easily.

I know this is more work but just thinking out loud here

 

[liam546]

Just an update.

I have decided to go with the 25mm metal wall lining system. This does require fixings at the center of the studs but I have found a fixing that seems to be very solid with my bricks. This fixing is a type of masonry screw. All I do is drill a 5.5mm pilot hole which as long as I don't use hammer mode disent crack the brick. I then screw these fixings into the pilot hole and the thread bites into the brick. So I'm going to go with these.

Thank you for all your help. This way I don't lose too much floor space and I can get 25mm insulation in there too.

 

[3DGuy]

Just an update.

I have decided to go with the 25mm metal wall lining system. This does require fixings at the center of the studs but I have found a fixing that seems to be very solid with my bricks. This fixing is a type of masonry screw. All I do is drill a 5.5mm pilot hole which as long as I don't use hammer mode disent crack the brick. I then screw these fixings into the pilot hole and the thread bites into the brick. So I'm going to go with these.

Thank you for all your help. This way I don't lose too much floor space and I can get 25mm insulation in there too.

I've stopped getting notifications for some reason! Doh!

Just saw your last few posts. You can still get the 25mm celotex to insulate with so that will help as you said. If it says centre fixings, it might be worth doing an extra one. Perhaps making it 2 fixings if you can. Remember you are hanging heavy tiles. When you spoke to them did you mention heavy tiles? Otherwise they may have just assumed plasterboard.

Just a thought that if you have found good fixings now perhaps fix, top and bottom, then again third down from the top and a third up from the bottom.

Just the extra piece of mind

Still scares me when you say you can quickly remove a brick easily ha-ha!

Personally not sure you will notice 2 inches 5cm of extra room loss combined on 2 opposite facing ends of the room. however it does sound like its a good system/route to take for your design.

End of the day it sounds like a work around for the situation/room limitations Keep photos coming of progress. Would be great to see!

 

[liam546]

Thank you, I will keep you updated. Once again I really appreciate all the help.

I will as you say fix in perhaps 2 or even three places along each stud and use the longer fixings too just to be safe.

I did mention that id be hanging heavy tiles top to bottom on some walls and it's 25kg psqm. My ceiling is 2.5 Meters and the width of the main back wall is 2.6 meters. This is a wall space of 6.5 sqm. So total weight for tiles on this wall would be 25 x 6.5 = 162.5kg. But then I have to add weight of plasterboard and adhesive to work out the total load the metal frame will be taking

I will call the manufacturers today to find out the weight limit for their 25mm system.

 

[3DGuy]

Thank you, I will keep you updated. Once again I really appreciate all the help.

I will as you say fix in perhaps 2 or even three places along each stud and use the longer fixings too just to be safe.

I did mention that id be hanging heavy tiles top to bottom on some walls and it's 25kg psqm. My ceiling is 2.5 Meters and the width of the main back wall is 2.6 meters. This is a wall space of 6.5 sqm. So total weight for tiles on this wall would be 25 x 6.5 = 162.5kg. But then I have to add weight of plasterboard and adhesive to work out the total load the metal frame will be taking

I will call the manufacturers today to find out the weight limit for their 25mm system.

Yea good call on checking weight limit and if it can take it the extra fixings. I would guess you would be looking at approx. 38.6kg psqm on the metal work. (approx. 25kg tiles, 5kg adhesive and grout, 8.68kg for standard plasterboard per sqm 12.5mm (not sure if the one you are using is different -/+ etc. gives that figure. So around 251kg on the frame for that 6.5sqm wall.

Defiantly good idea to check it. I would have thought it could take it but best to check if its close to what they say is the limit, I would go to the 50mm ones. DIY tiling will generally use a lot more adhesive that a pro will probably ever put on haha!

PS no problem at all! I see a problem and like to work out a workaround/solution Good challenge you have had there that's for sure!

How far are you in to your renovation?

 

[liam546]

I plan on using 12.5mm moisture resistant board which as you say is 8.6kg psqm. I plan to use a 12.5mm tile backer board for the shower area and British gypsum technical support tell me this is 10.1 kg psqm.

I just called British gypsum and they are telling me they their 25mm universal wall lining system as it's fixed to masonry disent have a documented load limit and that what I'm planning to do will be fine.

Given my bricks I'm a little bit wary but these fixings I've found do seem very solid. I've called CCF ltd who also have their own branded 25mm system which is cheaper than British gypsums version and they are coming back to me on weight limits.

As for the rest of the renovation, it's a semi detached 2 bed Victorian property with pitched roof and gable ends. Slate roof, no felt.

I've pulled down every ceiling which were old laths with lime plaster which was cracked and blown in places. I've also knocked a wall through and put a steel beam in. Opened up 2 fire places and restored original doors. I've ripped up wooden suspended floor and plan to rebuild and insulate this with either celotex or sheeps wool, I haven't decided which yet.

I have put up all upstairs ceilings again with plasterboard and insulated loft with 120mm celotex between joists and then laid some chipboard in loft too. We have also completely re wired the place.

 

[liam546]

Both British Gypsum and CCF are telling me as long as I don't put more than 32kg psqm on the board then the frame will be fine so looks like I'm good to go.

Just two outstanding questions I have

1 my plan is to use 25mm metal wall lining with studs at 400 centers. Then 25mm celotex, then 12.mm MR plasterboard with a tile backer board on the shower area. Then adhesive and tiles, but my question is whether as it's a bathroom and they'll be lots of moisture whether I should include a VCL somewhere. I'm worried about interstitial condensation forming in the small service void between the brick wall and the celotex.

2. I need to fit the top track of the metal lining to my ceiling which is a sloped ceiling. I need to something make my ceiling flat so that the track points straight down at the correct angle. Hopefully you can see what I mean in the pic below.

Untitled

• liam546
• 26 Mar 2014
• 3

 

[3DGuy]

Both British Gypsum and CCF are telling me as long as I don't put more than 32kg psqm on the board then the frame will be fine so looks like I'm good to go.

Just two outstanding questions I have

1 my plan is to use 25mm metal wall lining with studs at 400 centers. Then 25mm celotex, then 12.mm MR plasterboard with a tile backer board on the shower area. Then adhesive and tiles, but my question is whether as it's a bathroom and they'll be lots of moisture whether I should include a VCL somewhere. I'm worried about interstitial condensation forming in the small service void between the brick wall and the celotex.

2. I need to fit the top track of the metal lining to my ceiling which is a sloped ceiling. I need to something make my ceiling flat so that the track points straight down at the correct angle. Hopefully you can see what I mean in the pic below.

Untitled

• liam546
• 26 Mar 2014
• 3

Unsure on point 1 (will think - just quickly replying at work), point 2 - How strong is that timber on top on the bricks? Angle bracket the frame to that then just have a small triangle as the plasterboard butts up to the ceiling? then Scrim the joint (for assumed ceiling plastering)?