Is downlight replacement notifiable work?

[EFLImpudence]

Just out of interest, I wonder if the company would say the same for downlights in the hallway.

That is with (as Bas used to say) a great big hole in the ceiling above the staircase.

 

[JohnW2]

The quote for remedials was £746 including VAT to replace 35 downlights. I have pointed out that 12 of the downlights are in a kitchen extension which has a sloping roof above with no habitable rooms above. I have asked for a revised quote.

One further thought (I was going to say 'final thought', but probably would have been proved wrong had I done so!).

It is clear that those who have commented here all know or suspect that fire-rated downlighters are not required in your situation and that, even if they were, it's very questionable that this issue can/should be coded on an EICR.

If you cannot resolve this seeming nonsense with those who undertook the inspection, I would be tempted to suggest that you demand to be provided with the ('fail') EICR (report) and then discuss it with the prospective buyer, pointing out to them that the (as I understand it) one and only C2 is apparently simply 'wrong', and support that by also pointing out that millions (quite probably tens of millions) of houses have non-fire-rated downlighters in the same situation as yours, yet are not 'failing' EICRs all over the place for that reason.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

As a matter of interest, I've just created a poll about this issue. Please vote!

Kind Regards, John

 

[SimonH2]

As I skim-read part B approved doc, there is no specific fire resistance requirement for the ground floor ceiling. There's certainly no rule about "with sleeping space above". Things change when there are 3 stories, or if the upper storey is more than 4.5m above ground level - then compartmentalisation and protected escape routes come into play. But as I read things, there isn't compartmentalisation between your ground floor and the rooms above in a normal 2 storey house.
There is a general requirement for (I think) 30 mins fire resistance - but that's against failing structure rather than internal fire spread.

So the OP should go back to the contractor and ask them which part of approved doc B is being breached - they won't be able to say because it isn't. They should also ask for explicit BS7671 reg numbers - again, I suspect they won't be forthcoming.

I'm also in agreement with a previous comment. Don't go spending lots of money on something that the purchaser might be ripping out. Our kitchen ceiling is full of <long line of expletives suppressed> downlights - and the only thing that's stopped me ripping them all out (to be replaced with something useful) is the work involved in patching up the holes.

 

[hillsrob]

Thanks for all your help and advice which I've taken on board. The bottom line is we agree that the contractor is being over zealous but I have to remember that my target is to hand the buyer, that has taken 2 months to line up, a satisfactory EICR. I could try another company and hope for a better result. I could do the remedial work myself, which was what my post was really about, or I can pay the contractor to do the remedial work. The final quote has come in at £614 including VAT which includes a new cooker switch and replacing the smoke alarm circuit MCB with an RCBO. That leaves 2 C3s. The remainder of the downlights not fire rated and the Hager metal consumer unit with a plastic front. I'm going to pay the ransom and move to exchange of contracts.

 

[JohnW2]

... I'm going to pay the ransom and move to exchange of contracts.

As I said, if you feel that is the best course for you, I really do think you should discuss it with the buyer (if you haven't already) since it would be daft for you to spend anything (let alone an appreciable amount) if their intention is to rip out the downlights (or replace them with ones more to their liking) the moment they move in!

However, it's obviously your call.

Kind Regards, John

 

[JohnW2]

... and I presume you've seen the present state of my 'poll'. Even though there are few votes yet, no-one has yet even suggested a C3, let alone a C2 ...

Kind Regards, John

 

[hillsrob]

That's certainly interesting. It may turn out that the buyer will go to completion and forget about the EICR. I haven't received a date for the work to be done so I still have options. I do appreciate the effort you've put into this. My son in law has an NICEIC registered business and even he doesn't know for sure. He like you says that the issue is other parts of the building regs not electrical. One other option might be to ask building control.

 

[JohnW2]

That's certainly interesting. It may turn out that the buyer will go to completion and forget about the EICR. I haven't received a date for the work to be done so I still have options.

Fair enough.

I do appreciate the effort you've put into this. My son in law has an NICEIC register business and even he doesn't know for sure. He like you says that the issue is other parts of the building regs not electrical. One other option might be to ask building control.

You're welcome. I imagine that NC would have to agree (since it's obvious!!) that the issue was in no way electrical. Furthermore, they also have an interest in the fire-related parts of the Building Regs, so IF all of us here are right, then they presumably would be able to confirm that 'fire-rated' downlights were not required in your situation by the current regs, anyway.

Kind Regards, John

 

[hillsrob]

Just out of interest, I wonder if the company would say the same for downlights in the hallway.

That is with (as Bas used to say) a great big hole in the ceiling above the staircase.

That big hole got me thinking. There are no fire doors upstairs and 11 of the 23 downlights are in the front room which has the stairs in it.

 

[EFLImpudence]

There you go then.

I think everyone is thinking too much.

There is no need to think of reasons why you can't have what you don't need.

 

[hillsrob]

This video summarises your arguments very well:

 

[JohnW2]

This video summarises your arguments very well:

I suppose that is what one would expect and hope ... you're watching the man who gave you 'the answer' in the first reply to you (post #2, on page 1) ....

Fire rated downlights are rarely required in a domestic property. Even if they are, it's up to the buyer to repair/replace/whatever.

Kind Regards, John

 

[hillsrob]

I suppose that is what one would expect and hope ... you're watching the man who gave you 'the answer' in the first reply to you (post #2, on page 1) ....


Kind Regards, John

He's probably sitting back and enjoying the discussion.

 

[hillsrob]

Well, for a start, I'm not at all sure that (totally non-electrical) issues relating to fire resistance (as legally regulated by Part B of the Building Regulations) are within the scope of an EICR at all. We are, after all, not talking about anything electrical at all, merely the possible consequences of the hole in a ceiling created to house a downlight. As I said before, if there were an electrical problem they would be able to specify what regulation in BS7671 ("The Wiring Regulations") they claimed was being violated, and it seems that they can't. Again, I don't think that non-compliances with non-electrical Building Regulations should be considered by an EICR (although, of course, one would hope that any such problems would be 'brought to the attention' of the property owner).

That aside ... I hope someone else will jump in to confirm (or otherwise), since it is possible that I may not be up-to-date. However, as I keep saying, I did not think that their is a requirement (under Part B of the Building Regs) for any ceiling in a single-occupancy 2-storey dwelling to be a 'fire barrier' (beyond the baseline requirements for any ceiling), regardless of what sort of room is above it - such requirements only existing if what is above the ceiling is a different dwelling (i.e. under different occupancy). Can someone confirm, or otherwise, whether this is still correct?
As above, I remain unconvinced that replacement of any of them is actually required.

Also, have you actually discussed this with the prospective buyers? If not, it could be that they don;t want downlights at all, or wouldn't want the ones you might have fitted. If the first thing they would do after moving in would be to have the downlights ripped out, it would clearly be a bit ridiculous to you even think of spending money now to have new ones installed!!

Kind
Regards, John

I have emailed the following queries:

Before you order the parts please can you let me know the specification of the downlights you plan to order as there isn't much clearance between the floors. I think they are only 5 or maybe 6 inch joists. Fire rated downlights are usually quite long and require some clearance above them.

Also could you let me know what paragraphs of the building regulations part P, part B or BS7671 have been breached by the existing downlights? You mentioned in particular sleeping or living quarters. Bear in mind that there is an open stair well in the front room and no fire doors anywhere in the house. There is therefore no compartmentalisation between floors or rooms.