Jimmy Saville

[sooey]

Of course I am assuming that they weren't all paid to tell their stories, but even if they were that would not mean that they were lying.

You seem happy enough to use 'Gary Glitter' in your argument against Savile.
Yet.
A case against him was thrown out of court because - the witness was paid by the press. What makes this worse is, she was lined up for a bigger payout if he was found guilty.

Would you like to be the bloke in the dock with a witness like that?

Have I, you're fantasising now. I've said repeatedly that the only thing that matters is whether the alleged victims were telling the truth. I even said this to you

The subject of this thread is very black and white now. Forget all of the showbiz people and the name building "investigative reporter", focus on the women he interviewed. If they were telling the truth Saville was a perverted dirty bstrd who got away with things he should have spent serious time in jail for.
Were they all lying? I don't think so for a moment. What about you?

I can no longer be bothered to argue the toss with you as you have repeatedly proven yourself to be an idiot.
If Big Tone or anyone else wants to continue to have a sensible conversation about the subject I will be happy to reply. But I won't bother replying to you again.

 

[alumni]

You've made your mind up. Not for you to let other possible facts or details get in the way.

 

[Big Tone]

As I said, if anyone molested my daughter I’d make it my life’s mission to ‘out’ him in this life; not the next...

So would I, but would your daughter tell you?

Possibly not, but her mother 99% yes and my wife would have then told me. (Well, we divorced soon after but you know what I mean). But yet there’s not one instance of this over all that time when they should have been lining up and collating the evidence I reserve the right to be wrong, I’m just saying it don’t look good!

You need to look at it from the victims viewpoint, it's nowhere near so easy for them to come forward as you suppose.

Well no, not quite. You need to look at it from both viewpoints. Remember, if you get it wrong you have effectively punished an innocent man just as surely as he may have punished the many children.

Two wrongs don’t make a right, as they say.

 

[Big Tone]

As Alumni says, you've made up your mind...

 

[sooey]

Well no, not quite. You need to look at it from both viewpoints. Remember, if you get it wrong you have effectively punished an innocent man just as surely as he may have punished the many children.

That goes without saying.

Two wrongs don’t make a right, as they say. But as alumni says, you've made up your mind...

Yes I have, I said that many pages back. The man was as guilty as sin. The evidence against him is too strong. If you are saying that because he is not here to defend himself he should be given the benefit of the doubt you are procrastinating. Unless you think all of those women were lying there is no doubt.

 

[ajstoneservices]

Sooey, The reason why I won’t take their claims at face value.

When I was a young man a girl of fifteen told me that her step father had repeatedly sexually abused her. I believed everything she told me because I had no reason to doubt her, and in any case who would lie about something like that.
I publicly confronted the bloke and told him what would happen to him if he ever went anywhere near her again. He denied ever touching her and couldn’t explain why she would make the claims if they weren’t true.
The girl went on to get married to a hard working decent bloke but she ended up making his life hell.
She claimed at various times that he had fathered children with women he worked with and went to the office(s) where he worked on more than one occasion to confront them. He ended up leaving several jobs because of it. She accused him of sleeping with men. She went on to accuse him of assaulting her, sexually abusing their two children. That members of his family were intending to kidnap the children and take them abroad. All of her allegations were investigated by Police and social services and found to be untrue. I personally witnessed a judge threaten to jail her if she persisted with her allegations in her court.
I have no doubt she went on to repeat the claims time and again to anyone that would listen. And listen you would, she was plausible, convincing and truthful. It was only when she would tell you of the aliens that had repeatedly raped her too that the truth would dawn. I could go on about the things she claimed that had happened to her but won’t.
That poor bloke in the story was my youngest brother. A decent hard working bloke who loved his family, who stuck by her for years until he couldn’t take it anymore and left his home and the children he loved dearly. She went on to have other partners and to accuse them of various assaults as well.

A close friend of my wife went out one evening and ended up having drunken sex with some bloke in a club. When she arrived home to her waiting husband she cried rape. She went through the story of what happened and the police examination and only told the truth when her story began to unravel days later.
We had a friend who split from her long term boyfriend that had a breakdown so we let her stay with us. She went on to accuse her nan and granddad, brothers and sisters and school friends of having assaulted her at various points in her life. We had to ask her to leave our home before she started to include us in her wild claims.

Those women may all be telling the truth but sadly they may not.

 

[sooey]

AJ that's a sad story, and probably quite common.
If there were only one or two people accusing Savile it would be very relevant. But when you have a number of people, some completely unconnected to each other saying the same things you have to accept that it's unlikely in the extreme that they are all evil or mentally ill liars.

 

[ajstoneservices]

The sad fact is we will never know whether whats being said is true.

I know that I would not have acted as the producer and chauffeur claim to have. Just ignore some bloke abusing a young girl To save their jobs? *******s. To me their evidence is like them, worthless. I just couldn't trust what they have to say.

I can't believe what Karen Ward said despite it being clear she was searching her memory for what she says she saw. That doesn't mean I think she was lying, but what she says she saw isn't possible in the way she describes it.

I did not see enough from the women saying they had been abused to reach a conclusion one way or the other. Nothing they said was challenged or corroborated to my mind a lot of questions remain.

We now know that 5 Police forces have investigated the claims when saville was alive.

We know that red top newspapers were not afraid to print stories either of the great and good sleeping around, Princesses Margaret and Diana. They were never frightened to name Prince Phillip in stories of him shagging around. I find it hard to believe the now defunct NOW not going after him if they could. And yet we're told they were all to scared of him, not credible is it, not really.

Not too long ago we saw three pop stars arrested one after the other in a relatively short period over claims that they had committed rape. We don't know who the alleged victim(s) was/were, we don't know when. We don't know if the claims were made by three individuals or the same person. We do know that no further action was taken against them.

We know people put themselves in places or situations they could not have been. And that they do that for any number of reasons, from money to leading dull live or mental illness. It happens.

 

[Big Tone]

Here’s where you stand to get caught in your own bear trap sooey and why you should be careful what society you wish for. The danger and reason for the law being the way it is can quite simply be put this way...

If I and 20 other people on this forum all hate you, for whatever reason, and accuse you of being a paedophile or rapist then according to you we must be right. That is what you are saying; that is how you want this case against Saville to run. Again, evidence is not necessarily the same as proof, thank goodness, and testimonies do not carry the same weight or constitute proof on there own. Clinton left evidence on an item of an intern’s clothing and, together with testimonies, that was the proof they needed for his 'indiscretion'.

That’s why I say one veracious story which can be proved is infinitely more convincing than 20 or a hundred people whom may have a hidden agenda. We don’t know if or why people may do this, and I’m not saying the people in this case have. But the onus or burden of proof is, and should quite rightly be, on the accuser. It is not for the accused to disprove any and every crackpot story or accusation! See Russells Teapot

If this was the dark ages I could call you a witch, or warlock, get others to agree with me and you’d better make sure you drown mate otherwise you’d be guilty as accused and put to death. I thought we’d come on a long way since then, but it seems the same attitude prevails...

 

[sooey]

Big Tone, you say that a number of different peoples corroborating stories is not enough without "proof" whatever that might be.
If that is the case why have we had so many convictions for historic paedophilia by priests, childrens home carers etc.?
In the cases I'm talking about there was no semen on the bedsheet or any other proof because like Savile they were long ago.
But there are still many convicted paedophiles doing time because victims finally came forward.

 

[Big Tone]

AFAIK the priests finally confessed after overwhelming claims and, maybe, their conscience was pricking them with a little help from god in their old age. Well, to their sick mind, if they come clean even towards the end of their life they will pass through the gates to heaven.

It’s a good question sooey; why don’t you help me with an Internet search to find out because if you’re right then it’s is an anomaly or inconsistency in the law. The law can be an ass don’t forget.

BTW I don’t hate you or think you’re a warlock

Add: If, for example, a sample of Saville's sperm DNA was on one of the childs knickers I'd probably say hang him if he were still alive. It would certainly take some explaining..

 

[sooey]

I think you'll find that when you have a number of people making the same allegations without physical proof, the police first of all will take seperate statements to see if they can see patterns of behaviour. Which in themselves will give more wieght to the statements.
It's that type of thing that the cps will look for when deciding whether to prosecute.
There is no doubt that the stories that have come out so far are very similar and to that extent corroborate each other.
There will be many more people coming forward now that that programme has been aired, and I suppose the sceptics will be able to say about those, that they are simply repeating what they saw and heard on the tv.

 

[sooey]

Add: If, for example, a sample of Saville's sperm DNA was on one of the childs knickers I'd probably say hang him if he were still alive. It would certainly take some explaining..

We both know that that isn't possible after all this time, even if Savile were alive that situation would be the same.
So as we can say by default that he would protest his innocence it would just be their word against his.
Where does that leave us? It leaves us with who do you believe. As I've said repeatedly I believe the women, you carry on procrastinating if you like.

 

[alumni]

But there are still many convicted paedophiles doing time because victims finally came forward.

But thankfully, via a Court of Law

A world away from uncoroborated 'statements' to a publicity seeking TV/press.

 

[alumni]

Just to add.
It matters not a jot now.
No one would will be brought to trial .
Due in large to the very programme some have put so much faith in.

Some expert the ex copper turned out to be.