Keys..

[ellal]

It appears that the keys video is fine by google..!

Lynda...I suggest that you watch the whole video, and you'll see that it is very careful NOT to show how the 'bump key' is made!!

Do us a favour and not treat us like children - and don't delete something that is quite informative regarding security..

 

[JohnD]

I see the Google host says:

"Here's a documentary how-to on defeating any kind of mechanical lock. Amazingly it's not complicated at all and takes at maximum 30 seconds to get past any mechanical lock"

However, they are wrong. Perhaps in the US (almost) all locks are pin-tumbler cylinders (like Yales or Eurolocks), or "dimpled key" locks, but I would have thought that here in the UK, most houses have a BS 5-lever lock on their front door, which is immune from the kind of attack described here.

 

[hermes]

I see the Google host says:

"Here's a documentary how-to on defeating any kind of mechanical lock. Amazingly it's not complicated at all and takes at maximum 30 seconds to get past any mechanical lock"

However, they are wrong. Perhaps in the US (almost) all locks are pin-tumbler cylinders (like Yales or Eurolocks), or "dimpled key" locks, but I would have thought that here in the UK, most houses have a BS 5-lever lock on their front door, which is immune from the kind of attack described here.

That's what I thought when I watched it but I wasn't sure. Our mortice locks don't have tumblers that can be 'bumped' do they?

 

[ellal]

However, they are wrong. Perhaps in the US (almost) all locks are pin-tumbler cylinders (like Yales or Eurolocks), or "dimpled key" locks, but I would have thought that here in the UK, most houses have a BS 5-lever lock on their front door, which is immune from the kind of attack described here.

however, there are a lot of PVC back doors which can be 'bumped'

 

[JohnD]

Pah! Plastic doors! Pah! cylinder locks!

 

[Pensdown]

I hope the Mods don't delete this post again. Everyone should be aware of these bump keys and this is a great forum to spread the word.

My patio doors are at risk along with my key operated garage doors so I shall be changing the locks ASAP

Thanks for the info

 

[JohnD]

If they insist on deleting the link to the vid, we can leave enough of a warning up.

I remember seeing the vid a while ago. I only use Chubbs on my external doors, but changed the keysafe to an Abloy cylinder which works differently and is not "bump"able.

 

[Agile]

There has been a lock pick gun available for the last 30 years, about £20 for the manual and £35 for the electric version. They can be used by locksmiths for opening pin tumbler locks like the yale cylinder.

In spite of these tools having been available they have never become popular with the criminals because of one simple point.

A criminal is not concerned by damage to your property. He can simply break your windows or door to enter without having to carry any incriminating tools!

The five lever mortice lock is very secure and very difficult to pick and even locksmiths drill at the appropiate point to disable the detents.

Unless you have bars at every window and steel doors then its very difficult to keep anyone out.

The best protection is a noisy burglar alarm with a connection to a central station and a video recording. Very few burglars will hang around with an alarm sounding.

Tony

 

[JohnD]

That's what I thought when I watched it but I wasn't sure. Our mortice locks don't have tumblers that can be 'bumped' do they?

Given time and skill, any lock can be picked, but if you have a "Chubb-shaped" key rather than a "Yale-shaped" one, the bump attack will not work. It seems to me that the trouble is, you could buy a set of these keys from your neighbourhood Fagin, and any 12-year old could open doors in a few seconds. And he will not make a noise like he would if he broke a window. I don't think ordinary burglars ever pick locks, though I have watched someone pick a cylinder lock in about a minute using simple tools.

 

[Pensdown]

There has been a lock pick gun available for the last 30 years, about £20 for the manual and £35 for the electric version. They can be used by locksmiths for opening pin tumbler locks like the yale cylinder.

In spite of these tools having been available they have never become popular with the criminals because of one simple point.

A criminal is not concerned by damage to your property. He can simply break your windows or door to enter without having to carry any incriminating tools!

The five lever mortice lock is very secure and very difficult to pick and even locksmiths drill at the appropiate point to disable the detents.

Unless you have bars at every window and steel doors then its very difficult to keep anyone out.

The best protection is a noisy burglar alarm with a connection to a central station and a video recording. Very few burglars will hang around with an alarm sounding.

Tony

The most important factor with bump keys is if you are unlucky enough to be broken into this way, as the video pointed out, it's unlikely your insurance company will pay out and that could work out very costly.

 

[Agile]

You should not get too excited by "bump" keys. They only work on linear pin tumbler cylinders. They still have to be available to the user in the appropriate key profile.

The problem comes that the Yale A1 and the cheaper similar Bird cylinders are used on perhaps 90% of the houses in the UK. Those are the only two common profiles in use. Most people use these when they are at home but lock a mortise when they go out.

A few years ago BT had a problem with their coin phones.

The yobos found that with a cheap battery drill they could drill out the lock core and open the cashbox.

They had to modify the box with 8m thick steel covers over the key entry point.

Tony

 

[Pensdown]

If they insist on deleting the link to the vid, we can leave enough of a warning up.

I remember seeing the vid a while ago. I only use Chubbs on my external doors, but changed the keysafe to an Abloy cylinder which works differently and is not "bump"able.

Did you find a UK supplier for the Abloy Cylinder?

 

[JohnD]

Did you find a UK supplier for the Abloy Cylinder?

I bought mine overeas at a better price, but I think this guy sells them (family firm, lives in Walthamstow but has the business in the City)
http://www.towersecurity.co.uk

Also try the manufacturer (Abloy Security - phone 01923 255 066)

 

[ban-all-sheds]

Seen the video now.

And it is frightening. And pretty monstrous that DIYnot should not want us to know how vulnerable we might be in order that we might take additional precautions.

The idea that this sort of information should be withheld in order to keep it from the bad guys is deeply flawed, as they already know about it.

This is what the Dutch people who made the video said in print: (with censorship to remove the names of the people involved, as I really don't want to give DIYnot the flimsiest of grounds to remove it)

We decided to publish what we know about this method because we feel those that depend on the security of locks (or any other piece of technology for that matter) need to be able to continuously re-evaluate their security having full knowledge of any threats. This vulnerability is simply too generic: it affects many locks and cannot be 'fixed' by a single lock manufacturer working in secrecy until a new and better lock can be released.
Although we have further refined the method we were originally shown, we did originally learn about it through a public appearance by ****. And we noticed yet other people knew how to make it work even better too. In other words, this knowledge is 'out there', the cat is out of the bag. Given these circumstances, rather than allowing knowledge of this method to spread slowly amongst those that could attack unknowing victims, we decided to publish so that facility managers can re-evaluate their security and see whether additional security measures need to be taken at some locations.
If you disagree, we encourage you to read [1] and [2] for a more thorough understanding of the discussion on whether or not to publish information describing security flaws before engaging in any heated debate.

These are references [1] and [2]


[1] Matt Blaze, On the discussion of security vulnerabilities, http://www.crypto.com/hobbs.html

[2] Paul Clark, Full Disclosure Debate Bibliography, http://www.wildernesscoast.org/bib/disclosure-by-date.html

 

[Agile]

Surprisingly the Abloy locks are available from the company in Watford.

There are now similar type of locks made in the Far East with about the same level of security.

I would not advise anyone to rush out to change a cylinder lock.

The proper solution is a deadlocking rimlock like an Ingersoll SG1 or a five lever mortice.

Tony